In episode # 51, Dr. Reese talks with world renowned researcher and author, Michael Cremo. They discuss how the great pyramids of Egypt may have been built, how ancient beings such as Buddha, Jesus, and Krishna had supernatural powers, as well as his legendary findings on "Forbidden Archeology." Dr. Reese also asks about the behind the scenes of his appearances on the classic show, Ancient Aliens, and how he discovered the Bhagavad Gita in his early 20's. With a background in eastern spiritual traditions as well as western science, Mr. Cremo is able to provide a complete perspective on the the human vehicle and our existence, which shines through on this recording.
Dr. Reese (00:00:18):
Are you familiar with your human vehicle? Welcome to episode number 51. Today, I have the pleasure of talking to Michael Kreo. He's a world renowned researcher and author of the classic book, forbidden archeology. He's also the author of the hidden history of the human race, as well as human de-evolution. And he's toward the world doing seminars and exposed. He's also been featured on such television shows as the classic ancient aliens on the history channel. So it's a pleasure to sit down and pick this man's brain. Hmm. We're gonna talk about the supernatural powers of people like Jesus and Buddha and Krishna. We're gonna talk about the great pyramids of Egypt. How did they come about? We're gonna talk about how old human beings really are, but most importantly, we're gonna talk about the human vehicle. Mr. Cremo was a spiritual man of Eastern traditions, and that provides a brand new dynamic of science meeting spirituality, east meeting west, and he has many insights to provide. So let's dig in. I think I read somewhere that you came across the GDA at a rock concert. Is that true?
Michael Cremo (00:02:03):
Yes, that that's true. Absolutely. And, uh, the early 1970s, I wow. Had gone to, uh, on to a, a grateful dead concert in upstate New York. Yeah. I think it was Rochester, you know, someplace like that. I had gotten a copy of Bagavhad Gita from, I guess, a member of the hire Krishna movement at that time who had been right. Traveling around with the grateful, the grateful dead to their, you know, different concerts.
Dr. Reese (00:02:42):
Were you were what, in your early twenties?
Michael Cremo (00:02:45):
Yeah, I was in my early twenties at that time. I would've been about, uh, 23 or 24 years old at, at, at the time.
Dr. Reese (00:02:54):
Did you read it when you got home or you read it right there?
Michael Cremo (00:02:59):
Uh, I began looking at it right when I was at the concert and I already had a, an interest in Indian philosophy and things like that. Yeah. Because, you know, I, I grew up in a military. My father was an intelligence officer in the United States air force, so right. And that meant a few things for me, as I was growing up, one thing is our family was living in different countries and I had met some European kids, you know, maybe I was 16 years old at that time. Yeah. And I met some European kids who had traveled to India and back over.
Dr. Reese (00:03:45):
So you were being exposed to Eastern cultures, young.
Michael Cremo (00:03:48):
Yeah. Got exposed to a lot of different, so I, you know, I, I thought that was really fascinating. You know, they' told me some stories about, uh, going to the Himalayas and the goji river and meeting different yogis and S and things like that. So I became a little bit interested that,
Dr. Reese (00:04:07):
And then, and then all of a sudden the Gita one of the most famous spiritual books of all times yeah. Ends up in your hand at a grateful dead concert of all places. <laugh>
Michael Cremo (00:04:22):
Dr. Reese (00:04:22):
<laugh>, that's a funny story. What was it about the Gita that completely attracted you to Hinduism and Krishna?
Michael Cremo (00:04:30):
Well, I think what, what really got to me was this idea that the real person, the real self, my real self is not the body. Uh, that was really fascinating to me, the idea that there is a conscious self that can survive, you know, the death of the physical body and continue to exist and have other lives. In other words, there's reincarnation, right? And the law of karma, you know, that there are reactions to what we do and what we think, you know, there are reactions that come to us individually and collectively, you know, these things were very intriguing to me and they seemed to correspond really to reality, as you know, they added a, a real dimension to my understanding of myself and my place and in, in the universe
Dr. Reese (00:05:54):
That's right. And Krishna himself is a fascinating character
Michael Cremo (00:05:58):
As well. Well, that, that was another whole aspect to it. The concept of God that's revealed in the Gita and other VA literatures was something different from anything I had ever encountered before. Uh, I was raised as a Roman Catholic and, and I, I got a lot from that, but there was this dimension of, you know, cuz the, you know, the, the picture of God that I had from that was right. Kind of the God of Michelangelo on the 16 chapel painting of a very old, powerful male figure with a gray beard and right. You know, kind of
Dr. Reese (00:06:59):
Michael Cremo (00:07:01):
Overlooking things and yeah.
Dr. Reese (00:07:03):
Michael Cremo (00:07:03):
And, and in the Gita and beyond the Gita, Giza other Vedic texts, the picture of God that was presented was really something quite different eternally youthful, playful, mm-hmm, <affirmative> engaged in all kinds of attractive activities. Uh, God, that is not strictly a male figure, but has a female counterpart, uh, Raha who is in her own right. Also very intriguing and attractive. Right. And you know, they there's this whole dimension where love of God begins to have an entirely different, different meaning.
Dr. Reese (00:08:01):
Michael Cremo (00:08:02):
So that, that, that attracted to me. And eventually I became a disciple of a guru from India, um, BTA Viant, Swee <inaudible> and I began to
Dr. Reese (00:08:15):
Have one of his practice.
Michael Cremo (00:08:17):
Yeah. B yoga <laugh> Yeah. The, the, uh, yeah. Scientist self realization that this
Dr. Reese (00:08:25):
Book, funny story, this book right here was given to me also at a rock concert.
Michael Cremo (00:08:32):
Oh, what, what, what band
Dr. Reese (00:08:35):
Was, It was a festival with tons of bands. And, and so I've had this book for about 10 years now and go figure it's GU guru.
Michael Cremo (00:08:46):
Yeah. The philosophy and the whole outlook that was explained in yeah. In that book, of course, you know, I, I don't claim to have a, a monopoly own truth. And I think that exclusive claims to truth are one of the big problems in, right in the world today. So the vision that was presented by my guru is that, you know, wherever say like, if you see gold, you know, the element gold, you know, it, it, it, you know, you may see it in a, a coin and the coin may have symbols of different nations on it. Right. But if it's really gold, then it doesn't matter what you call it. You could call it Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Juddaism, or Hinduism or whatever. But if it's, if it's, uh, really gold, then it really doesn't matter, you know, what you call it. So I think love of God and true understanding of the self mm-hmm <affirmative> can be found in many different.
Dr. Reese (00:10:09):
Michael Cremo (00:10:11):
Dr. Reese (00:10:11):
Absolutely. So, uh, a wise man once told me there's many ways to get to 42nd street <laugh>
Michael Cremo (00:10:18):
Dr. Reese (00:10:20):
Many human beings have been reported as to having mystical or Supreme powers Krishna being one of them. Right. Krishna even as a child there's stories of him slaying beasts and demons, and one time he even parted a body of water with his foot. Um, of course, Jesus healing, the sick walking on water. Yes. Water in the wine Goam, the Budha himself has it's. It was reported that he could fly or walk through walls, um, St. Patrick going to, you know, the Catholic side of things was reported to melt snow with his staff and slay demons. And of course, Mohamed transported himself all the way from Mecca the Jerusalem. So there's yeah. These, these wild stories. And are they myth or are they parables or are these human beings that realize they're true potential?
Michael Cremo (00:11:20):
Well, I think they're all dealing with reality as it is. And therefore you see a lot of commonalities among the kinds of experiences and visions that they, uh, display or report having encountered basically, you know, in, in my book, human devolution, AIC alternative to Darwin's theory. I look at phenomena like this. I have a cross-cultural study of cosmologies where I look at 30 or 40 different cosmologies and worldviews from different locations and times and human history. And as you were mentioning, you know, the, they report similar visions of reality. They display similar powers. And I, I attribute that to the fact that they're all dealing with the same basic reality. And that reality is that we're part of a whole cosmic hierarchy of beings. Life is not limited just to this earth and life on earth has dimensions and aspects to it. You know, that, uh, there are subtle powers that yeah, you say the mental body has beyond the limits of the gross physical body.
Michael Cremo (00:13:01):
You know, there are experiences that we can have that involve the ability to move things or perceive things that go beyond the limits of the gross physical body. As on, on that level of reality, everything is ruled by a principle harmonious, loving cooperation among all being superior consciousness. If some conscious being becomes selfish, domineering, controlling, exploiting, then there' no place for them. On that level of reality, there has to be another level of reality where they can act out those desires. And that other level of reality is where we find ourselves. Now the material level of reality. And here we have a choice. All of us, we can decide to become either more involved in trying to compete with each other, dominate control exploit for our own selfish purposes, the material resources and other personalities, or we can take the path of light. You could say that first path is the path of darkness, right? The other is the path of light, trying to understand I'm being of pure consciousness. You being of pure consciousness, we're all being some pure consciousness. We all come from the same source, we're all related, but don't divide ourselves up into different competing groups, but satisfy our material needs in the most simple, natural, fair, and efficient way, right. Possible. Right. And put most of our energy into developing that resource of consciousness.
Dr. Reese (00:15:19):
We're all part of the whole, this plane that we're living on. It's very layered like you, like you mentioned, it's very layered and I wonder why scientists modern science doesn't pay as much attention to what we're talking about right now, the metaphysical side.
Michael Cremo (00:15:39):
Ultimately, I think that has something to do with some decisions that scientist made a few centuries ago. Even if you go back maybe 400 or 500, 600 years in Europe where Western science arose, the, uh, the worldview that they had at that time was very different from the worldview they had at the present moment. You know, they had a worldview that involved multiple levels of reality. They had a worldview that involved different kinds of subtle energies and powers and persons that aren't part of the scientific worldview today. Right? And that's because at a certain point, uh, they decided, uh, well, let's just focus us, focus, our scientific work on matter, ordinary matter, physical matter, not the different subtle and vital energies and things like that, but the, what we can actually, uh, observe and control and let's study ordinary matter and how it can operate according to mathematically describable equations that enable us to, uh, predict and control what will happen.
Michael Cremo (00:17:22):
Right. And that was very effective by that method. Scientists were able to advance in their understanding and ability to control ordinary matter. And as a result of that, they were able to develop technologies, which governments liked very much, which corporations liked very much at which we, people like very much as well. They were able to develop weapons, new weapons, for example, which governments and militaries, like they were able to come up with, uh, pharmaceuticals medicines that corporations like, they were able to come up with all kinds of products that we, the ordinary people like, right. So it was very effective and in that sense, but there was a cost to it. And the cost was, they didn't have a complete picture of reality by this focusing on ordinary matter. Yeah. We got a lot of technological advancement in progress, but it was at the expense of not understanding who we really are.
Dr. Reese (00:18:48):
Michael Cremo (00:18:49):
And where we are, they didn't have a complete picture of reality. They ruled out, uh, the existence, the idea that there's any higher power in the universe that has something to do with our presence here. They ruled out the idea that there's a conscious self that can exist apart from matter. Right. And they began to tell us, well, we're all just machines made of molecules.
Dr. Reese (00:19:18):
Michael Cremo (00:19:19):
And so, and because of these mistaken ideas, you know, we find we've developed the civilizations. That's destroying the environment that is engaged in violence and competition on all levels of human society among this conflict among individuals, classes, races, nations, uh, you know, there's, so we're missing something. Uh, I mean, this focus on matter has resulted in a lot of progress in one sense, but there's a lot of problems that is created as well. Absolutely. So I think, uh, a new science, which recognized, okay, yes. Matter is part of the picture. But beyond that, there is, there are different subtle energies and there's consciousness, which is not produced by matter. It has its own independent existence.
Dr. Reese (00:20:28):
Michael Cremo (00:20:29):
The had a science that took that into account would be in a lot better place. Yeah.
Dr. Reese (00:20:34):
The form versus the formless. Do you think this is why many modern scientists are atheists?
Michael Cremo (00:20:44):
Yes. And I'm not really surprised by that, but as far as I'm concerned, if, if someone by the exercise of their own personal intelligence comes to that conclusion, that's fine. But I don't where I disagree is when people try to take their own personal conclusion and impose it on others. Right. By especially using the government, you know, through its control of the education system, you know, to enforce their personal views, whatever they have to be on others.
Dr. Reese (00:21:37):
Michael Cremo (00:21:37):
Right. So that's, that's where I see you, you get, get into, into problems.
Dr. Reese (00:21:47):
So about 20 years after you came across the bavada at a grateful dead concert, you wrote a book called forbid in archeology that became a classic. This book rubbed a lot of science people the wrong way, didn't it?
Michael Cremo (00:22:07):
Well, yes. <laugh> and it deals with the question of human origins and antiquity. Now, as far as modern science is concerned, human beings like us first appeared on this planet between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago. And before that, they would say, well, there, there were no humans like us existing on this planet or anywhere else in the universe. There were only more on this planet, more primitive, ape, like human being, not humans, human ancestors, and then apes and monkeys. You go back a little further than that. Some primitive, small mammals before that only dinosaurs and reptiles. And before that only amphibians and before that only fish. And before that nothing, just material elements on this planet. And that's their picture that were accidental beings that have arisen in an accidental universe, but from the VAD literature of India, from the Bavan Nita and the paras, the historical and cosmological writings of ancient India, and the knowledge that comes down to us from many other wisdom, traditions, ancient wisdom, traditions, right.
Michael Cremo (00:23:48):
They, they kind of tell us a different story. Namely, that human beings have been around since the very beginning of the history of life on earth. And to me that's pretty rational. You know, the, the universe is actually a very complicated place. And now say, if we have some scientists on earth, they put up a space station, okay. The space station is up there, but they're not putting it up there. Kind of hoping that the chemicals and the space station will combine together form some first living thing that will gradually evolve into astronauts that will then inhabit right. The space station. No, they put the space station up because they've got astronauts that they want to put in it and, you know, right from the beginning. So our universe is not an accident in, in my opinion, right. It, it has a purpose. It's like a school for itself to understand who they are. And that understanding comes in the human form of life. The human vehicle is a very special vehicle. So I think it's always been around. Yeah. And it there's some archeological evidence for that. Uh, that's what the book forbidden archeology is all about.
Dr. Reese (00:25:27):
Hmm. So there's many artifacts that are just swept to the side and hidden from us.
Michael Cremo (00:25:37):
Yeah. This idea of extreme human antiquity is one of the things that I encountered in the Bogota and other BEIC literatures, you know, and it was something that was completely different from anything I'd ever heard from my teachers in high school or in college. So I, I, yeah, I was thinking about it, you know, is there any evidence for that humans like us exist for millions and millions and millions of years, or is this just simply some mythological aspect of, of these ancient wisdom traditions, like the VALIC wisdom tradition. And so that, that's what got me looking into the history of archeology. Of course, if you look in the current textbooks of archeology, you're only going to see the discoveries that support the dominant idea scientists have today, which is right. Human beings have only been around a short period of time, really. So, but I decided, okay, I'm not just gonna look at today's textbooks. I'm gonna go back to the original scientific reports. And when I did that, I found many reports of scientists finding human bones, human artifacts, human footprints, going back millions and millions of years in some cases. And, you know, I began to ask myself, well, why, if these reports, if these discoveries are there in the original scientific reports by archeologists, geologists, paleontologists, why aren't they in the textbooks right today? And I think it's because of the process of knowledge filtration that goes on in science, right. Things that the current paradigm you'll hear about. Don't,
Dr. Reese (00:27:50):
There's some social engineering going on there
Michael Cremo (00:27:53):
And it's in one sense, it
Dr. Reese (00:27:54):
It's cherry picking
Michael Cremo (00:27:56):
It. It is. And, and in one sense, it's just human nature,
Dr. Reese (00:28:01):
Michael Cremo (00:28:01):
You know, like if I love somebody and then somebody tells me something bad about the person I love, then, you know, I may not want to hear it. You know, may even become a little angry at the person who mm-hmm, <affirmative> says such things. So kind of like in a similar way, today's scientists are very much in love with their current theories. And right. If you
Dr. Reese (00:28:28):
Michael Cremo (00:28:29):
Some evidence that contradicts it, then it it's kind of a natural response.
Dr. Reese (00:28:34):
Sure, sure. And your research, how on point are the Sumerian tablets?
Michael Cremo (00:28:41):
Some of it's just accounting and stuff like that and kind of stuff. But there there's also, uh, Sumerian tablets texts that deal with cosmological issues, the, uh, origin of life and the universe and things like that. As I said, among these different ancient wisdom traditions, there are a lot of commonalities. There are also some differences, you know, because people are looking at things from their particular perspectives. It's like, if you have a mountain, you know, somebody looking at it from the east will perceive it in a certain way. Somebody looking at the same mountain from the north will perceive it in a slightly different way. Yeah. But it's kinda obvious that they're dealing with the same thing. So a lot of these different ancient wisdom traditions, whether we're talking about the Samian or the, or the Greek or the Roman or Pacific island perspectives or native American Indian perspectives, right. Yeah. They have some commonalities and one of the commonalities is it's a multilevel cosmos that we inhabit, and there are different types of beings at, you know, the different levels and some of the beings that are involved in the creation or the manifestation of these different levels. And, you know, there are interactions between humans on this level and these other beings that exist at other different levels. So, uh, it's, they, the vision that they present goes far beyond the idea that life is confined to this one planet that we now inhabit. Right.
Dr. Reese (00:30:56):
But, and have it, right. So
Michael Cremo (00:30:57):
In, in, in the Sumerian text, you find that that idea, uh, but it's also found in many other wisdom traditions as, as
Dr. Reese (00:31:10):
Well. So could it be accurate that we were engineered by a, a higher species, an alien species, if you will, and were like, were, were an experiment basically?
Michael Cremo (00:31:28):
Well, I wouldn't put it exactly in
Dr. Reese (00:31:33):
Michael Cremo (00:31:34):
In those, in those terms. Uh, of course, one thing is that I have an expanded definition of what it means to be an extraterrestrial or an alien. And this depends on understanding that the human body or any other type of body, an animal body, a plant body, an insect body, whatever type of body it is, it's a vehicle for a conscious self that has its origin on some higher level of reality. Right. So, uh, I would say in that sense, as beings of pure consciousness, we're all aliens, we're all extraterrestrials as beings of pure consciousness.
Dr. Reese (00:32:43):
We're all here to have an experience in this school, not just us, but a, a tree. Yeah. A dog or a dog.
Michael Cremo (00:32:53):
Yeah. Uh, and we're having these experiences in these vehicles that we call bodies and the human vehicle is a very special one, but they're all special in the sense that they're meant to give the conscious self, different kinds of experiences and opportunities to act in particular, particular ways. So these vehicles, where do they come from? They are designed. They, they, they didn't just come about by chance. They're designed in order to give us different kinds of experiences and lessons in this, as you say, school, you know, that we call the universe, for example, as a, as a human being, I'm meant to walk around on the land. Right. If I enter an alien element like water, and I wanna remain there, I can only do that. If I have a vehicle, a boat, like a submarine yeah. Or a diving suit that will allow me to function underneath the water mm-hmm <affirmative>. So where does that come from? Comes from an engineer who understands the human beings gonna live under the water. It needs such a vehicle well play. So they design it, they make it, we use it. So similarly as a being a pure consciousness, by coming to the world of matter, I need a vehicle made of matter that will allow me to function in the world of matter.
Dr. Reese (00:34:44):
So could, could it be that the, an Nachi created this vehicle called the human body?
Michael Cremo (00:34:51):
Yes. And you could, and the Sumerian text they're called AOC and other texts. They may be called angels or June or Davis's or whatever, but yes, there are higher beings with higher intelligence who are responsible for producing the vehicles that we operate in on this level of reality. And the human vehicle is the very special one because in the human vehicle, in the human form of life, we have the intelligence to understand these things, to understand that we're not produced. We're not originally from this level of reality, we're from a higher level of reality. And the real purpose of human life is to return to that higher level of reality that I call the level of pure consciousness that other people may have a different term for it near VA, or there are different terminologies, right? Or for these things.
Dr. Reese (00:36:14):
But you J you just said something that's very, in my mind, important, you said there's different names and that's consistent in all cultures. That based on my research and studies, one of the names that you just brought up is the Davis. So the Davis, it's a very common term term in Hinduism and Buddhism and Goma de Buddha talked about the Davis, talked about communicating with him, especially at the end of his life. So you're saying Davis correlates with in other cultures, angels, maybe even on una, maybe ascended masters could be another term. Do you
Michael Cremo (00:37:02):
Think that's, that's another term, basically, I would see it like this, that originally on the level of pure consciousness, which is beyond the level of matter, there are unlimited numbers of being of pure consciousness. And they're all coming emanating from the same source, like sparks that are coming with the fire. If some of the sparks drift away from the fire, you know, they kinda lose their fire equality. You could say. And we're kind of in that position now where we've been as being superior consciousness, we've been covered over a little bit with subtle material energies, like mind and intelligence and ego and gross material elements. Uh, so the beings that are maybe covered with subtle material energies like mind and intelligence, the Davis and other such beings are on that level, but some conscious cells, they also, in addition to the coverings of these subtle material elements have coverings of the gross physical elements as well, like this human body or the body, a fish, or an insect or an animal, some, some kind. So the Davis are on this intermediate level where they have simply coverings of the more subtle material energies, and they are able to control and manipulate the gross physical elements on this level of reality and produce, you know, the different kinds of gross physical bodies that, you know, we have, and they operate on a, a different level. And that level may involve all kinds of phenomenon that we, we, we would consider to be paranormal. Right. Supernatural, things like that.
Dr. Reese (00:39:46):
Yeah. Now, speaking of that, is that how the great pyramids were built in Egypt?
Michael Cremo (00:39:55):
Yeah. Well, I think some peoples at different times and different places were more in touch with these subtle energies and they could use them to manipulate ordinary matter in ways that we just can't imagine today. Mm-hmm <affirmative> in other words, say, if we want to make an airplane, a jet airplane, well today, the way we do it is we mine minerals. We refine them in factories, turn them into metals, like, you know, titanium and aluminum. And then we bring, you know, the different elements together. And another factory, you know, you have your supply chain, you bring them all together, you have your engineers and things like that. And you, you manufacture and airplane by this very complicated process. And the tic literature, you know, we find that there are descriptions of yogis with mystic powers who would manifest the monos aircraft or spacecraft simply by their manipulation of, you know, the using different, subtle energies to put these things together. And that doesn't involve mining and manufacturing and things like that. Right. So these, some of these, uh, structures that we find a little difficult to explain yeah. How exactly they were done according to ordinary physics and our understanding of how things are done, I believe, yes. They may have been done by beings who were in touch with these more subtle levels. And they had an understanding of how they using these different, subtle energies of forces. They were able to manipulate ordinary matter in ways that right. You really can't imagine or yeah. Accomplish today. Yes.
Dr. Reese (00:42:38):
And, and not to mention, they're brilliantly lined up with the, with the sky, with the stars astrologically.
Michael Cremo (00:42:45):
Dr. Reese (00:42:46):
What about India? What is it about India that is so mystical? I mean, this place is just, I've never been there. You've been there. Right. How many times have you been there?
Michael Cremo (00:42:59):
Um, dozens of times
Dr. Reese (00:43:01):
The, the colors, the music, the people,
Michael Cremo (00:43:05):
You know, I had studied other kinds of mystic, spiritual traditions. You know, you can look into ancient, Egyptian, spirituality and cosmology and things like that. Read the, uh, the Egyptian book of the dead. You can read the hieroglyphics, you know, there are all, all different kinds of information presented and the Egyptian text. But, you know, if you look today, you know, if you go to the pyramids or the temples and ancient Egypt, generally speaking, you're not gonna see the Egyptian priests or personalities who were part of that culture still functioning today. You know, same thing. If you go to the Parthenon in Athens, you know, I mean the ancient Greeks, they have all kinds of understandings about, uh, the universe, but you, you, you don't see that ancient Greek culture functioning today in right. Hanon same with a lot of the other ancient wisdom traditions, the Sumerian, for example.
Michael Cremo (00:44:33):
Yeah. Yeah. You can still visit, you know, the, the different Sumerian sites and you can see the artifacts in the museums, but there's not a living Sumerian culture existing today. What I really found fascinating about India is that yes, the BAIC text are there. They describe this, uh, ancient culture and it's understandings, but what's fascinating to me about India is that today there are still remnants of that culture that are still existing. You can go to the different invading temples in India, and there's still functioning in the same way that they wore thousands or even millions of years ago. So, you know, that's one thing that I found very, very, uh, fascinating about, right. Uh, India of course, on, on one level, you know, that they were they're called, they were, their culture was affected in some ways, you know, by the fact that, you know, the European countries like England and others kind of took over and right. Impose kind of like a layer of, uh, Western organization and understanding on that culture. But, uh, basically the culture kind of continued on despite that. So,
Dr. Reese (00:46:17):
Well, I, I hope it keeps going, cuz every, it seems like the whole world is becoming westernized a little at a time, but you know, India, not only does it have all these ancient places and artifacts, but so many gurus and yogis and sages have come from this one area. I mean, it's, it's, it's like a, a phenomenon.
Michael Cremo (00:46:44):
Yeah. Well, my guru used to say,
Dr. Reese (00:46:48):
Michael Cremo (00:46:49):
That you could, the best thing would be to combine the best of the west
Dr. Reese (00:46:56):
And best of
Michael Cremo (00:46:57):
East the east. Yep.
Dr. Reese (00:46:59):
The east produces the gurus and the sages and the west produces the scientists <laugh>
Michael Cremo (00:47:05):
Yeah. Well, in, in ancient times, yeah. If we go back in history, there was a time when, uh, India had, <affirmative> had the proper vision and they also had a, a society organized according to those principles. Yeah. But uh, now the vision may still be there, but the organizational and functional aspect is, uh, probably more developed in the west, although the west or the, the modern developed world. Yeah. Cuz it extends beyond mm-hmm, <affirmative> what we call the west classically. But to say the developed world scientific world, it has a lot of functionality, but because it lacks the proper vision, you get so many problems, war that's, right. Economic disasters, uh, conflict, environmental destruction, and so many things.
Dr. Reese (00:48:21):
Yeah. Now you have a guru. And so you understand the guru disciple relationship. Why do you think that relationship is so misunderstood in the Western side of the world?
Michael Cremo (00:48:39):
Dr. Reese (00:48:40):
How many times are, is it said, oh, that's a cult. Are you hear the word cult thrown around? Like, it's nothing, you know, it's like, if you get down and you touch defeat of another, man, it, it means something in India. But it just looks like you're in a cult in New York. Right. If it happens in New York, but then again here in the west, we go crazy over celebrities, right? Dwayne, the rock Johnson walks in and people shake and they faint <laugh>. So it's an interesting dynamic between the east and the west when she said, well,
Michael Cremo (00:49:19):
In, in the west, when people have a problem, they want an expert mm-hmm <affirmative> that will present factual situation, the factual situation to them. And on that basis, they think then we can act in a proper way. And in order for us to learn what to do in the face of this problem, we need some advice from experts, right? So who are the experts many times, you know, we come to situations where our own resources don't allow us to come to some conclusion or way of understanding. And then at that point we want to go to an expert. So that's what a guru is, is an that's expert and understanding the fundamental problems of human existence.
Dr. Reese (00:50:41):
Right. I just, I it's a topic that I bring up on this podcast off often because I want people to understand it. It doesn't always have to be, you know, Jesus Muhammad or Moses there's other avenues to find your true self.
Michael Cremo (00:51:00):
Yeah. And the VA tradition is VEIC tradition. It's recommended that the disciple test a perspective guru, right. Or a year, at least before agreeing to accept that person as a teacher.
Michael Cremo (00:51:27):
Right. And in the same way, the guru is advised to test the disciple for a year. And in other words, to have a genuine guru disciple relationship and in Christianity, that's originally how it started. Jesus was the teacher, he had his disciples. It it's expressed in exactly those terms. That's right. And why did his disciples accept him? Because they heard what he had to say. They could see it, they could see he was living according to what he was saying. And when they were following his instructions, they could actually physically observe that they were improving. They were getting, you know, some real advancement spiritually from their connection. So, uh, just same thing. Yeah. Today. Sure. You know, there are many people who may be teachers or posing themselves as teachers, but then you have to look, what did you know? You have to test them. So, so
Dr. Reese (00:52:58):
Makes sense. So Michael you're, I mean, your books are full of just a wealth of knowledge, so much research. What's the one discovery that you made in your career that just blew the top off your head. I mean, it just blew your mind, man.
Michael Cremo (00:53:17):
Well, the most amazing thing for me is, is that there are hundreds of cases where scientists have found evidence for extreme human antiquity. To me, that's the most amazing thing. But among those hundreds of cases, I do have my favorites. And my, my favorite is the California gold mine discoveries. And you know, in the 19th century, gold was discovered in California. So minors came from around the world to get the gold and they were digging tunnels into sides of mountains, like table mountain in this Sierra and Nevada of mountains near the town of Sonora and deep inside these tunnels, the miners were finding human artifacts like obsidian SP points, stone, mortars, and pals. And, and they were also finding human skeletal remains. And these discoveries came to the attention of Dr. JD Whitney, who was the chief government geologist of California. And he published a report about them report was published by Harvard university in the year, 1880.
Michael Cremo (00:54:55):
But you know, we don't hear about these things today because of the process of knowledge filtration that operates in the scientific world. So there was a, another scientist, a contemporary of Whitney's a Dr. William Holmes, who was an anthropologist at this Smithsonian institution in Washington. And he said, well, if, if Dr. Whitney had understood the theory of human evolution, you know, the Darwinian theory, he wouldn't have announced those discoveries. And because you know, that he thought they were millions of years old and they were, the discoveries were made the layers of rock that modern geologists tell us are about 50 million years old. So poems was saying that can't possibly be true, cuz it contradicts the, the now dominant theory of evolution. But, and because of that, these discoveries are not very well known today, but some of the artifacts from the California gold mines are still in the collection of the museum of anthropology at the university of California at Berkeley. So once I got permission from the directors of that museum to study and photograph those artifacts, so that was an amazing experience to hold in my hands. These artifacts that were made by humans who lived over 50 million years ago. Wow. So that was pretty amazing. And then I went into the Sierra Nevada mountains. I went to table mountain and I was able to relocate some of the old 19th century gold mining tunnels where these objects were discovered. So that was also a pretty amazing experience. So that's one example of a, an astonishing
Dr. Reese (00:57:22):
Michael Cremo (00:57:22):
Dr. Reese (00:57:23):
How long, how long does it take you to put together a book?
Michael Cremo (00:57:28):
Well, the, the book forbidden archeology took about eight years of
Dr. Reese (00:57:34):
Michael Cremo (00:57:35):
Research and, and writing, but you know, I wanted it to have some impact and, and for that to happen, I knew it had to be very carefully researched.
Dr. Reese (00:57:52):
I mean, we know books are usually a word of mouth type of thing.
Michael Cremo (00:57:57):
Although it was offered to mainstream publishers, it was actually published by a small company originally called Torchlight publishing.
Dr. Reese (00:58:12):
Michael Cremo (00:58:13):
Uh, that is operated by someone who's connected with the same spiritual master guru that okay. Myself and my co-author Richard Thompson were connected with. So it, it, it, uh, although the book was offered to mainstream publishers, they didn't take it. Right. And so it was published by a small, independent publisher and uh, somehow or other it caught on mm. And it not just in America, but actually all around the world, you know, the book was picked up by publishers and it's, you know, it was translated into 26 different languages.
Dr. Reese (00:59:14):
Wow. And then there, you have it, it becomes a classic just like that.
Michael Cremo (00:59:21):
You know, sometimes, you know, that happens, you know, uh, an idea, uh, kind of circulates underground and then it, it, you know, kind of comes from the bottom up,
Dr. Reese (00:59:38):
Forbidden archeology needed to happen. And so it did many years later, you ended up on a very popular television show called ancient aliens on the history channel. Now that show is it's on Netflix, it's on Amazon. I mean, it's like forever embedded in our modern entertainment cycle. Now, looking back on that, do you think that the ancient alien series holds up the way it was produced? Cause when you sit down for an interview, you don't see the final product. You just know what you said in front of the camera.
Michael Cremo (01:00:22):
Well, yeah. Ancient aliens is a, an interesting phenomenon. I mean, 1993, when you forbidden archeology, you know, came out. Yeah. The mainstream media wasn't we, we did get a, a, a special on NBC. It was called the mysterious origins of man. It was hosted by Charlton Heston, so, Hmm. So, but there was a, uh, a big negative reaction from the scientific world. You know, when, when, when that came out,
Dr. Reese (01:01:07):
Did they throw the pseudo word on you? That's what they do. They
Michael Cremo (01:01:10):
PDO, you know, those kinds of things. Yeah. So, but since, but after that mainstream media sort of stayed away, you know, from, from, uh, these topics. But I would say the ancient aliens series was, um, pretty revolutionary in the sense that, you know, a mainstream channel was yeah. Taking this up, you know, history channel.
Dr. Reese (01:01:43):
Michael Cremo (01:01:45):
And, uh, I was involved in the initial pilot that was aired and I was in some episodes and the first, uh, few years of, of, of the series mm-hmm <affirmative>, but yeah. Kind of how that works is you're interviewed, you may be interviewed for an hour or two, but they take out 30 seconds or two minutes of what you said and put it on.
Dr. Reese (01:02:24):
Michael Cremo (01:02:25):
So I think at a certain point, you know, they, you know, I haven't been in any of the recent episodes of it.
Dr. Reese (01:02:41):
Right. You there for the beginning,
Michael Cremo (01:02:42):
You, I think there's a reason for that behind the scenes. I was always trying to get, get them to understand my expanded of what an extraterrestrial or an alien is.
Dr. Reese (01:03:03):
Michael Cremo (01:03:04):
Dr. Reese (01:03:06):
Uh, what you explained on this podcast just
Michael Cremo (01:03:10):
Right, right. Yeah. That were beings of pure consciousness.
Dr. Reese (01:03:14):
Right. You were bringing the spiritual aspect. You that's, what makes you very interesting to me is that you're bringing the spiritual aspect and the material archeological aspect and it, it, it provides a more dynamic and complete perspective
Michael Cremo (01:03:31):
To yeah. So even among what you might call the alternative archeology and history researchers, I'm kind of an anomaly among them.
Dr. Reese (01:03:50):
Right, right, right.
Michael Cremo (01:03:52):
Yeah. So it's,
Dr. Reese (01:03:53):
You stand out an
Michael Cremo (01:03:54):
Interesting situation to be in
Dr. Reese (01:03:56):
<laugh>. Yeah. The, you just never know what you're gonna get in the mainstream. And that's the beauty of this new podcasting thing that we have this new phenomenon where you can talk, you know, in long form, like we're doing right now and you have a podcast coming out soon as well. That's gonna be very interesting. Certainly, you know, you, you get the good stuff is the long terms, not a 22nd clip on ancient aliens.
Michael Cremo (01:04:22):
Yeah. That, that will be coming out hopefully sooner than later, it, it will be called the forbidden archeologist.
Dr. Reese (01:04:36):
Michael Cremo (01:04:37):
And you know, so that will be, you know, coming out if people can stay in, in touch with, you know, my website and cream.com, the interviews link it'll when the, when that's ready, when it's, uh, coming out, there'll be notification of it.
Dr. Reese (01:05:04):
Hmm. I feel like we could keep talking for hours and hours. There's so much more that I would love to pick your brain on, but I do have to wrap this up, but you know, you're in your, you're in your early seventies now, correct?
Michael Cremo (01:05:19):
Dr. Reese (01:05:20):
How has your spiritual practice helped you with the transition of getting older and closer to leaving your body?
Michael Cremo (01:05:30):
Well, you know, it's kind of interesting because the, as the essence of the spiritual path that I follow is that the self, the actual conscious self is different than, you know, the physical body, the physical body is, uh, an instrument that the conscious self is, is, is using. So it is kind of an experience to, uh, understand, okay, this vehicle that I'm presently using to try to accomplish my purposes is, well, it, it, it, it's maybe not functioning quite as well as it was 30 or 40 years ago. Sure.
Dr. Reese (01:06:32):
It's ripening. Yeah.
Michael Cremo (01:06:34):
As long as it is functioning, I'll continue to use it. Yeah. To hopefully benefit myself and others. And in, in, in some way, if, if I didn't think that I was benefiting myself and others by doing this, you know, I, I wouldn't be doing it so, right,
Dr. Reese (01:07:05):
Michael Cremo (01:07:06):
Where it will lead. I mean, ultimately, I mean, I'm going to be continuing my existence beyond this gross physical body. Right. And even now, you know, you, I, I find myself with the sense of being in this world. Yes.
Dr. Reese (01:07:32):
But not of this world. I get it.
Michael Cremo (01:07:36):
That's kinda the realization that I get as, as a conscious self within the vehicle. <affirmative> and the vehicle of a material body.
Dr. Reese (01:07:54):
Right. Well said, Mr. Cremo it's been an absolute pleasure. I wish we had three more hours. <laugh>
Michael Cremo (01:08:03):
Well, maybe we'll get a chance to talk again.
Dr. Reese (01:08:06):
Oh, I hope that would be great. That would be great.
Michael Cremo (01:08:08):
Dr. Reese (01:08:10):
Take care of yourself. So there you have it, Michael Kreo world, renowned researcher and author. I think we got a lot out of that. And certainly it matches with the last episode, the row boat episode, episode 50, right. I provided a discourse on the boat being your body, and you have to row the boat. The row is the action. So who rose the boat? I was talking about your soul or your true self. Michael KMO was using the term pure consciousness. And instead of vessel or body, he used the term quite a few times the human vehicle. So it's just a beautiful thing, how this all comes together. And sometimes there's different terms used from different traditions, but it's all the same concept because truth is the truth. And when the dots connect for you, it becomes a very beautiful existence. Hmm. Be sure to keep your eye out for my new meditation album, uh, it's available on Dr. reese.com. That's Dr. Spelled out and it'll be up on Spotify and apple hopefully soon. So you keep your eye out for that. And I'll talk to you on the next episode.
Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Thanks for listening to inner peace with Dr. Reese. If this episode opened your heart, feel free to share on social media and tell your loved ones. Also be sure to subscribe. So you never miss an episode until next time may peace be with you.