In episode # 72, Dr. Reese sits down to talk with Veena Schlegel, an Osho Disciple who lived with him from 1971 until his death in 1990. From mystical experiences and strange meditations all the way to rolls royces and tantric sex, the conversation covers a lot of ground on the most popular and controversial spiritual guru of the modern era.
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Dr. Reese (00:00:00):
Welcome to inner peace with Dr. Reese, a program that can help you become liberated in the modern world. Now here's your host, Dr. Kevin W. Reese,
Dr. Reese (00:00:18):
Have you ever wondered what it would be like to live with the most popular notorious and controversial spiritual master of the modern era? Welcome to episode number 72. Today, I have the pleasure of talking with vena Schlegel. She met OSHO randomly in India in 1971, and stayed with him until his death in 1990. And wow, there's a lot to talk about. There's a lot to unpack in this episode. She was there before the Bagwahn became super popular. She was there for the meditation camps and then the first commune, which is called Puna one. And then of course the notorious ranch in Oregon USA, and then back to India for Puna too. There's so much to talk about. Of course, a lot of it is in her book, which is called glimpses of my master. But of course my curious mind wants to go behind some stories and find out stuff. Hi, Veena welcome to the podcast.
Dr. Reese (00:01:41):
So I would like for you to take me back to 1971, you're in India.
So there was this very beautiful woman dress in orange, and she had a Marla, you know, Marlar these wooden beads that Indian spiritual people wear. And, um, she came up to me and she said, oh, she said, I've met this marvelous guru in Bombay or Mumba as it is now. And she said, I want you to come and see him. And I said, oh God, no, I'm not interested in gurus. Cause I many hippies with so many Gus for so long now in India. Um, then she just I'll pay your fair back to your airfare back if you'll come back with me. And I was like, no, what are you talking about? No way. But the boyfriend took the address cuz he was a bit more interested. And so when we finally end up in bomb, ended up in, um, Bombay, we did all the buying of the tickets and everything. Then he said, let's go and see this man. So that's how I ended up in, uh, Woodlands, which was the name of the name of his high rise apartment in Bombay.
Dr. Reese (00:03:00):
What was your first impression of him?
<laugh> when I walked in, I didn't actually have any impression. So there was three of us, there was my boyfriend. Then there was another guy I didn't know and myself. And of course the two guys walked in in front of me. And um, so I was the last one, but actually I was a sort of, a bit of a glamorous hippie and I had all these rings on all my fingers and on my toes and ankle bracelets and all that. And OSHO's first words were, ah, the lady with the rings has come. And uh, <laugh> I dunno if that other woman told him, I, I don't know how he knew that, but anyway. And um, then he started to talking to this. He wasn't a real boyfriend. He was just somebody I'd known and traveled with who heroin addict and was now trying to live on, on fruit and O show went right to his center in about two minutes flat. And that's when I had my first estimation. This has got to be the greatest psychologist I've come across
Dr. Reese (00:04:13):
<laugh> cause I had a degree in psychology and English and uh, so I was quite tuned into that. And then he spoke to the second guy and my second impression, uh, was he spoke more about spiritual things to the second guy. And my sec, my second impression was this is the greatest philosopher that I have ever met for couple
Dr. Reese (00:04:36):
Years. And so you were supposed to leave India, you had the ticket and everything. Yes. And in your book, glimpses of my master, you talk about how you end up not leaving. You end up staying. Why did you stay?
I had to just, there was a whole inner voice saying you're not, you know, as I described in my book, my, the whole of that week was you're going, you're going back to England. Oh no, you're not. You're going back to England. No, no, no. You're staying in India and um, yeah, I guess what can you say? Um, as OSHO has said, it put it be so beautifully. He said, when you see, when you meet the truth, you know it
Dr. Reese (00:05:18):
And it was that, that simple and that strong, you know, um, I just knew I had to stay. Of course my mind was a bit, uh, <laugh> very nervous about it, but, uh, the heart was definitely you staying, you know,
Dr. Reese (00:05:37):
So, okay. So it's 1971. What, how big was his following at that point?
Well, we can fast forward a little bit to, uh, what did I say? 1972, which was a camp. Oh, sorry. A meditation retreat. If you like the Indians call it a camp. And um, he wanted me to come to that, which was in a place called Maran, which is on the GA between Bombay and Puna. And um, so we ended up there and um, at that point there were there, they were, they were accounted, there were 13 Western people and, um, probably about 200 Indian, uh, people. So not many. And of those 13 people, I'm the only one remaining <laugh> because a few of them have died and the others left. Right.
Dr. Reese (00:06:38):
Right. What was your thoughts when you first did OSHO's notorious dynamic meditation? What was that first experience like?
Okay. Let me qualify that the greatest gift to mankind is dynamic meditation at IRA has transformed as many people as Buddhi VIPA technique. Um, okay. Well actually to be honest, I did do it in goer, that lady, um, <affirmative> um, after we'd met them, she actually arranged the meditation amongst a whole group of hippies on the beach in goer. And I loved it. And I remember after doing it sort of walking around and going, oh, I'm high look I'm high and I haven't done any drugs <laugh> but that was a different experience to the first, the next meditation, that experience that I had at that meditation retreat in Matran where, um, in the second stage the breathing was okay. I mean, breathing is amazing, but the second stage, when everybody went crazy and allowed and all these Indians were screaming and shouting, I just, I had a blindfold on and I pulled off my blindfold and all these people were going crazy. And I thought, my God, VI, you have made one big mistake. Get out of here fast <laugh>.
But, um, OSHA was very good at dealing with me with about that. And, um, when I saw him, he, he, I, he, he told me the next day he said, stay away from the people, find a nice tree <laugh>. So I did. And then, um, I ended up teaching dynamic, um, for the first time in England, first time, um, on Western soil, actually, there were a few people in America, but it, um, it was going, it went quite strong in England. And um, so I taught dynamic for quite a while and I still think it is the greatest transforming technique for modern man.
Dr. Reese (00:09:03):
Yeah. People love it. And isn't it interesting how your first impression of it was like, what the heck is going on? Imagine what someone thinks of it that has no knowledge of Eastern traditions at all, spirituality at all. They think you're just going crazy.
Yes. Well, or, or even Western psychology, you know, they don't understand that there's all this stuff bottled up inside of people, which needs to be let out, you know, actually all OSHA said once it was like a spring cleaning, all I can say, it's the most transforming technique for 21st century man, that they can be, but it is not popular because of that second stage. It's difficult to hold meetings with that because with all those people, screaming, the neighbors get freaked out and call the police. And it happened to me quite a few times. Um, you know, and wondering what an earth going on and people dying or murdering each other. So yeah, it has its drawbacks in that. Um, neighbors don't understand
Dr. Reese (00:10:15):
After your first time doing dynamic meditation, my understanding is that you went back to your room, you went to sleep and you had a dream or a vision where OSHA came to say hello.
<laugh> yes. He told me to come back. Um, after doing that, that was actually the second one in, in the Maran or the first one at the Maran retreat. Yes. He, uh, had told me to come back to see him, um, to see how I had managed. Um, I think it was a two o'clock and, um, I overslept, I, I suddenly was drained of all energy and I suddenly had this vision of him at the bottom of my bed saying, wake up, wake up, you supposed to come and see me? And I did wake up and it was like, oh my God. And then I ran up and I think that was also a transforming moment. I woke up and I ran up to his house. It wasn't too far. It was maybe five minutes or something. And I was, he said, I'm sorry, I'm late.
And he said, um, yes, I know I called you. And I just sat down and I looked at him and I just kind of like, he disappeared and I disappeared and I just went into something, some space, some beautiful, transparent space that I had never met before. And, um, I have no idea to this day, how long I sat there for, it could have been two minutes, it could have been an hour. And then, um, when finally I sort of came back to earth, he just looked at me and he said, okay, so you'll stay with me. And I said, yes.
Dr. Reese (00:12:05):
Is that the confirmation that you're dealing with? Something <laugh> different?
Yes, probably. It was my first little tutorial if you like. Mm. And, um, I had had ex little bit of experience of it before, when I was on the train, going from Bombay to deli. You read about that in my book where I had this kind of like floating experience, but was yes, my first taste of something bigger, something vast, something unknown, something you couldn't put into words. And, um, I suppose I was hooked <laugh>
Dr. Reese (00:12:53):
Yeah. You know, you said there was only, I think, 12 or 13 Westerners there at the time.
Dr. Reese (00:13:02):
So many of us Westerners have all this baggage from our lifestyle socially we're socially engineered very much so
Dr. Reese (00:13:11):
<affirmative> and, you know, do you, do you think that OSHA created dynamic meditation and other techniques for the Westerners
With all this conditioning and baggage that we carry 100%? Yes. Um, in those early days, when we were still in, um, Mumbai, um, me and he used to call a few people in, sometimes we would be two or three people, sometimes just one person and he was questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, um, try this technique. How do you feel, what does it do? You know? It was, it was really like, we were Guinea pigs. He was trying to figure out how we were, how we responded, what our hangups were and everything, and therefore give him the information that he needed to try and, um, uh, work out how he could help.
Dr. Reese (00:14:13):
He was a scientist in that way.
You was a hundred percent scientist. Yeah.
Dr. Reese (00:14:19):
And so wasn't Goma de Budha from what we read in reports of ancient times. And so it sounds like OSHA was perfecting his craft on how to reach more people and try to wake up more people. And, and you were there to witness it
<laugh> yes, yes. And be part of it and hopefully help. Yeah. No, no. That is absolutely the case. You know, he was very clear, you know, we have to change, we can't use old methods, you know, because this is 20th first century, it's a jet age. You used to say, we have to use jet mess, um, methods. And it is absolutely true because, um, there are too many people still doing the tra traditional techniques, which were designed for people 2000 years ago, who were living in a completely different world to how we are living now,
Dr. Reese (00:15:21):
What did you make of him? You know, not blinking much and also doing these long discourse, these set sayings where his leg has crossed the whole time. <laugh> it almost just seems out of this world.
I think if you are a medical person and you watch him, I've had people comment and say it is physically impossible for a person to sit with one crossed leg for two, two and a half hours. I feel I have a little bit of an understanding about that because when you are, gosh, that gets very esoteric. Now, when you are out of the body, if you like, so the body, the physical body is there, but you actually are not part of it. You've expanded way beyond it. Um, the body becomes a, a little bit irrelevant, so it doesn't function as it would normally be. If you were sitting there like you are talking to me or talking to you, for example, one, one example he used to try to illustrate that was Naski dancing because it was very often said that when NA Naski jumped into the air, when he was dancing, it is physically impossible for a person to jump that high and for such a length of time and be SU remain suspended for so long. And, um, OSHA spoke about that. And he said, that was because he was in another space. He was actually out of the body and therefore the body wasn't obeying the normal gravity rules or the normal physiological rules that, um, it normally would do
Dr. Reese (00:17:27):
One day. He told you that he had a new meditation for you. Right. And he asked you to sit in the garden outside of his room. Is that correct?
Dr. Reese (00:17:38):
While he slept,
Dr. Reese (00:17:43):
So this, this was the story in your book that fascinated me the most because we're what, what did you feel D was there a trans transmission of energy while he was sleeping?
Terrified me, first of all, cuz mainly because he had said, um, he said, oh, you are chattering minds disturbed me. He said, your minds are forever chattering. You know, they disturbed my peace. He had said that a few times. So then he told me to go and sit and I mean, so there was only this brick wall between me and him. And so I thought, oh, my mind's gonna be chattering and chattering and disturbing his, his peace and everything. So I was very nervous. It was, I certainly didn't felt in feel anything initially other than being very nervous. Um, but it was like, uh, you've heard this, this, um, expression and I can't pronounce it properly. The sword of, have you had express? I
Dr. Reese (00:18:49):
Haven't, I haven't no.
Um, where you've got a sword hanging over you and because of that, you are supremely aware because that sword could fall at any point and, um, Pierce you and kill you. So because of that, I basically felt it was a training in being supremely aware and to be so aware of my chattering mind that actually I was able to calm down. So I think, um, uh, I wouldn't say I had any particular feeling or emotion or anything. It was just trying to be in the state of awareness of myself and of him and of my mind and to slow that mind down so that stupid chattering didn't disturb him. It was a very, very strong, um, learning or teaching technique that he was, he was teaching me, which was, he took a risk cuz I could have disturbed him <laugh> but he seemed to be okay with it. And I sat there until I left the first time I left India
Dr. Reese (00:20:13):
And he, he was very into his naps. I mean he loved his naps. Right.
Uh, naps was the most important thing. You, nothing ever disturbed his naps ever. <laugh>
Dr. Reese (00:20:30):
Why do you think that is?
My own understanding is, is that when you meditate and you are deeply meditating, you use up a lot of energy. And um, he actually said that and, and I remember his, the woman who looked after him, Nirvana saying that when he was just giving a discourse or giving Daron, he could lose like three or four pounds in weight just in that hour or so, because he was putting out so much energy and I have felt it myself when I've been through some kind of energetic experience like that. I am exhausted and I sleep. So I think he was regulating his energy. So he would be putting it out in the morning, in the morning discourse or something, then he would eat and then he would sleep to regenerate his energy ready for the evening. Dashan so I think it was, it was a, a real regeneration actually.
Even somebody mentioned that about, um, ger, if you've heard anything about ger, how once they said he looked so exhausted and then he had to go and he stayed away for three days or some three hours and he came back full of energy again. But I, if, if you don't mind, I'll tell you one experience that I had. Um, there was a man that I was quite close to and he was going a little bit crazy. And I remember I had this feeling to go out of the LA house where I lived, which was OSHA's house. And there was a wall there that wall was very famous to sit on the wall and he was sitting there and I went and sat with him and I, I, I could feel his energy was quite sort of frantic or something. And I had just held his hand, you know, and we sat there for about an hour and a half and I just felt all of Usher's energy going through me to him. It was like, you know, you know, he did use mediums. You you've heard about this whole medium thing in the Darins.
Dr. Reese (00:22:52):
And it was as if I was simply being a channel for him to go through my knee, to this man who was a very beautiful man actually. And when I finally left him and I went back, I think I slept for 15 hours nonstop.
Dr. Reese (00:23:13):
Just exhausting. So I think that answers your question of why he had to have an nap because it was a vital regeneration time for him because of all the energy he was constantly putting out.
Dr. Reese (00:23:30):
Yeah. I mean the, the man talked almost every day.
Dr. Reese (00:23:36):
For 20 years straight.
Dr. Reese (00:23:40):
I, how, how does <laugh> that's not phenomenal. That's hard to wrap the mind around and twice a day.
Uh, yeah. Although the Darins well in pina one that was before we went to the ranch, he would give discusses in the morning and Darins in the evening. So he was still talking in Dhan and he was still putting out a massive amount of energy. Um, so yes, in pina two, he, we only, we didn't have, um, Dhan anymore. Dhan means meeting him more personally talking to him, you had a chance to speak to him. And those people who wanted to take Sonya, you know, took Sonya personally, physically from him in front of him. Um, and then Aber as you well know, um, he, that time in the jail and America took a massive toll on his body. And he said that he felt that he had been irradiated with some kind of irradiation. And strangely enough, we're hearing about this right now, um, with Russia, put irradiating people to, to kill them. The latest one he's in Germany now, but he's recovered, you know, but, um, OSHA's body was much weaker yeah. In the two.
Dr. Reese (00:25:12):
Yeah. And Valium poison as well.
Yeah. Whatever it was, we will never know.
Dr. Reese (00:25:20):
So in 1974, that's when Puna one started. Right. The ashram. Yes. Yes. So now the audience is getting bigger.
Probably still not in 1974 was 1975 that the <laugh> the, the crowd started coming. Yeah. There was this Del huge, that started yes. More 1975. And it reached quite a peak in 1976.
Dr. Reese (00:25:54):
And so I, I have listened to countless hours of discourse. Right. And a lot of them are from 76, 77, 78, right in there.
Dr. Reese (00:26:07):
And you know, the format of these quote unquote audio books. They're not really audio books, they're discourse, but they're on audible as audio books, which is clever. Yes. I might add the format is the discourse would be one audio track and then the next audio track would be a Q and a session.
Dr. Reese (00:26:35):
So as I'm listening to these now I've been a public speaker for almost 25 years. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I know what it takes. I know how much energy it takes to talk to crowds of people. Yes. And he's doing it every day and it's mind blowing to me the value the organization. So what I'm wondering, and what I wanna ask you is how much effort did you see? Oh, show put into these talks. I mean, certainly you couldn't prepare for all of them, but I mean, there are pictures of him, you know, in his bedroom, you know, writing things down or he has a book open or, or whatnot. I know he didn't plan them out word for word. Definitely not. But an outline of some sort, something
Not in Puna one, no Puna two. Yes. In Punit two, you can see if you can, if you're looking at a, a video, you can see him turning over the pages. He has got a few notes in pina, two in Puna one, no, he just tuned into something else and off he went it, you know, it it's it's, this is another indication which um, you actually picking up is that this impossibility of somebody to speak with such coherence and such organization without notes every morning, you know, so, but actually, no, he didn't only notes he had were the jokes,
Dr. Reese (00:28:24):
The jokes. I was just gonna say that. Yeah,
Yeah, yeah. That's the early notes cuz he didn't read the jokes cuz it was, he wasn't quite an, you know, he wasn't, wasn't quite his, um, cultural heritage, those jokes, but in Puna one, you know, the only thing he did every now and then, um, because I was editing the books first and then sewing on the library, veranda, you know, he had this huge library,
Dr. Reese (00:28:56):
Um, supposedly at one point by the Guinness book of records said to be the largest private library in the world. And um, in the afternoon before, because his work time was, was off to the nap sort of from, um, about three to five and he would send out an librarian maybe to pick out a certain book. Now he had this whole library and he knew exactly what book he wanted, you know, and they had to find that book and take it into him and then he would use possibly, um, he would paraphrase. It wouldn't be a complete quote, but he would use from that book in the discourse the next morning. So that's about the only kind of preparation he did, you know, he just tuned into something else. And I mean, when he was talking like for me the early days, because I'm very Zen, Zen is my thing when he was talking on LASU and trying to zoo and lit zoo, you know, it was as if he was tuning into those people and simply talking about their essence, that's all.
And I mean the same thing when he talked about Budha, you know, I mean mind blowing <laugh>, you know, you, you just, you know, it really is, you can't even believe, you know, how, what he was doing, but if you think he was, if you like channeling, maybe we could bring it down to something that's a little bit small, but channeling the knowledge, the understanding of the great speakers and you know, Kevin, I'm so glad you spoke. You've spoken about this because so often in the press, particularly in the media have called him a new, old age guru, spouting a hodgepodge of bits and pieces of other philosophies. Um, and he, he is known for that and he is derided for that and he doesn't have, um, what's the word? He, he, he doesn't have credit for what he was actually doing because people simply don't understand, but you have listened and you have seen that there is a vast, vast, vast energy behind what he's speaking. He's not just spating you at new age latitudes at
Dr. Reese (00:31:35):
All to understand OSHA is to me to first understand what a spiritual master is.
Dr. Reese (00:31:45):
And then, and then you can understand OSHA that's that's the only way and same with ger. Yeah. Yeah. Same with bohi DMA. Same with all of them.
Dr. Reese (00:31:54):
Yeah. They're all saying the same thing over and over <laugh>
Yes, of course they are.
Dr. Reese (00:32:00):
So in order for OSHA to come out there every day, he had to become a commentator, no different than a sports commentator. So an ex athlete plays for 15 years retires and then becomes the color commentator mm-hmm <affirmative> for the, for the games and yes. And they can speak on it because they've been there, done that. So they've
Ex experienced it
Dr. Reese (00:32:26):
O show can talk about the diamond Sutra and he can talk about this Zen master and he can talk about discernment on the mountain, whatnot, because he can go into their shoes and he can tell you the essence of it. So he's a, he's a commentator in that way,
Right? Yes. Commentator and a channel <laugh> yeah, he's a new age term. But, but it, it is, he is, you know, he said, he said, you have to be like a hollow bamboo. Yes. The, the, because the music only plays because the bamboo flute is hollow, you know? And so he was playing that music because he was hollow.
Dr. Reese (00:33:08):
Yeah. So what did that Buddha field feel like?
He maybe start by saying, he, he said many times that whenever a Budha is on this planet, a Budha has a bud field around him and he actually was quite specific. He said, it reaches for a circle of eight kilometers, you know? So as soon as you were, were within eight kilometers of the Budha, you would feel the energy. And then of course, as you got closer and closer, <laugh> it was stronger and stronger. And I was actually trying to think today, how could I possibly put that into words? It was like, it was like entering a cloud of peace of joy of just floating outside a bit of your physical body and getting a taste of something greater, some energy of the universe or something where you are just your, um, petty, uh, human being, you know, involved in earning your living and eating your food and, and blah, blah, blah.
It was something bigger than you. And what I living in his house is I did, um, I would often walk down what we call the red corridor because I lived in one of the rooms of the original servants quarters and walking down to his library, which was one of the bigger, much bigger rooms. I really felt transparent. It was if I was a happy ghost, um, walking down and, and yeah, it is very, very hard to put that into words, but there was just a magic in the air, you know? And it was, you walked into this cloud of, of magic. Um, I won't even say feeling, cuz feeling brings you back to the human body, this, this, um, sense of magic in the air and something vast than you. I think that is, that is the, one of the basic things I have always felt about him is his vastness.
And when he talks about taking you out of your little human, um, mind and heart or emotions and things to take you into something greater and bigger, there was a sense of this fastness. I tell you one thing, which is, again, another turning points with him. There was like lots and lots and lots of little learning things. I was lying in my bed one day and I suddenly had this feeling of me here in the body, on the bed that could feel the bed underneath me. And I could see him a thousand miles away, a billion miles away. And I was really freaked out cuz I thought I was, I was quite close to him. So in those, it was quite early on in those days you could actually book a Dhan quite easily. You could go that evening. So I went to him and I, and I said, Hmm, you know, I said, I thought I was close to you or something, but I now I feel that you, you so far away from me, I can't even, um, imagine. And he looked at me and he said, Hmm, very good lesson. Now you start to understand how far away I am and how far you have to go. <laugh> <laugh> yes. OSHA. Yes. <laugh>.
Dr. Reese (00:37:17):
Now this is a good segue because for those that don't know, you know, OSHA became self-realized or enlightened when he was only 21 years old.
Dr. Reese (00:37:32):
<affirmative> I've heard him say vena, man. I don't know where I read it, but I I've read it that he actually had a theory, which is rare. Cuz usually he's only spoke what he knew. Right. But he had a theory that because he became enlightened so young that his body couldn't support the energy, his physical body couldn't support the energy. And he thought that maybe the reason why he became so chronically ill and his body was breaking down at a younger age. And he in the reading where I read it, he actually recommended people to, you know, wait till they're 30 or 30 or plus 30 plus when your body is more able to handle it. I thought that was just fascinating.
Well, he had no, uh, he said that actually quite a few times. Um, uh, he said that when you open up to for one of a better word, the energy of existence, it's such a shock. So it is so big that your body has to be very, very strong to, um, to handle it. And yes, definitely his body was weaker than other enlightened masters. For example, there's one enlightened master. I never met him, but I really do feel he is enlightened in, in China. He's 96 now he looks like he's about 60, you know, but he, uh, I think got enlightened much later, more in his fifties or sixties or something. So he's managed to hang on and um, but yes, I think OSHA and there's so good. You bring that one up too, because um, I said somewhere and another talk I gave some a few months ago is nobody realized how fragile his body was and that when you know, some people I remember, um, in Puna or watch over Puna one or two, it was, it was why can't those people living in Latu house, come and wash the pots and pans here too.
Like us. Why can't I go and live in LA to house? You know? But we were so aware of how fragile his body was and how we had to, we do the maximum to sh to ensure that he wasn't disturbed in order for him to carry on with what he was doing. His body was very fragile. And that's why very few people actually met him physically. Yeah. It's totally true. His body was fragile.
Dr. Reese (00:40:26):
Yeah. He had asthma. He seemed to have some sort of fatigue,
Dr. Reese (00:40:34):
Diabetes, what type one? Or like when, so,
Um, a pre prediabetes. It was controlled just by food,
Dr. Reese (00:40:43):
Which is interesting because he's a, he is a skinny guy.
Dr. Reese (00:40:48):
<laugh> usually type two diabetes is from somebody who's hefty.
Yes. Yes. But uh, but actually Indians have a high rate of diabetes in India is very, they, it seem to be, um, in their DNA that they, they are, are more susceptible to diabetes. I mean a lot of Indians suffer from diabetes and they were pretty thin too. Hmm. So now you're absolutely right. Cuz bro was fragile and needed a lot of care.
Dr. Reese (00:41:22):
I love your book. There's another book that I also love from a Sanin uh, da do you remember da
Yes, of course. Yes. Yes.
Dr. Reese (00:41:33):
His book details. The pain that OSHA went through in the dental room.
Dr. Reese (00:41:42):
It's mind blowing. I mean, I had to fight back tears because I've never heard of such a thing of somebody who can go through so much pain and handle it, Like some out of this world type of uh, pain threshold.
Dr. Reese (00:42:06):
Yeah. And EE tells a story in that book and I'm paraphrasing where he had to do some dental work on O show and you know, he had the drill going and you know, it kept getting caught in his mustache and everything and, and, and he's like, well, we gotta shave the mustache. He's like, no, you can't shave the mustache. You just do what you have to do. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and one point Osho tries to talk. Yes. And da navigate pulls the drill out. And he's like, what are you doing? You're gonna cut yourself. Like you can lose your tongue <laugh> and Osho says, don't you don't you tell me I can't talk.
Dr. Reese (00:42:49):
Don't you tell me I can't talk. And he kept doing it. And it, of course it messed with navigates mind. EE was getting angry mm-hmm cause he doesn't, he doesn't wanna hurt his mm-hmm master. Right. And O show was actually willing to hurt himself to teach him a lesson.
Absolutely. And also one other point, that's also very good point. And you can also get a parallel with ger too, which OSHA talked about. If you remember, ger had a very bad car accident.
Dr. Reese (00:43:25):
Was driving very fast. He had a very bad car accident and um, he nearly killed himself and um, it took a long time for him to recover. And OSHA's explanation at that point was quite interesting. And this, I think relates to this whole dental experience. He said that RGF had to force himself to stay in the body, to do his work. And the only way he could stop himself from floating off to existence, which is where the enlightened person really should be. Cuz the enlightened person, according to OSHA, hasn't got a connection with earth anymore, you know? So in order to keep him there in the book to, in order to keep himself in the body, RGGI deliberately had a car accident and hurt himself because it was the pain that was keeping him here in the body. Wow. Without that pain, he could have floated off.
And I, you know, of course I read David Gates's. In fact I did the first editing on it. Um, and, and I was like, you know, I was so shocked. I said, I, God, David begin, how on earth could you go through that? You know, this is just terrifying. It's mind boggling. But I also got the sense that not only was he doing, uh, teaching delegate a lesson, what we, he was teaching, we don't know. But, but also it was possibly, he was getting very close to leaving at that time. So it was possibly now I'm not saying this is true or not. This is only my own idea, possibly an attempt still to keep himself in the body for as long as he possibly could, but deliberately bringing himself into the body to experience that pain.
Dr. Reese (00:45:23):
Yes. And I have heard many times that many spiritual masters need something earthly to ground themselves so that they don't float off now. And if you notice many gurus are sometimes a little chubby, so they, you know, they get involved with the food and that might, that might be their earthly thing.
Did you read that story of, of when OSHA explained that of one Indian enlightened man who was eating everything he could see? Did you read that? Do you remember?
Dr. Reese (00:45:58):
Yes. Yes. It was. It was, um,
I can't remember. It
Dr. Reese (00:46:02):
Was Krishna something.
Dr. Reese (00:46:05):
I think Rama Krishna. It was Rama
Krissh Krishna. Yep. And then his disciple said, this is terrible. You're eating so much. And he said, the day I stopped eating would be the day I die. And that's exactly what happened.
Dr. Reese (00:46:18):
Baba named Carol was like that as well. He'd known for his blanket. He had the blanket and he was, he, he ate a lot of food and uh, Ramona Maharshi liked to cook. He'd go in and he'd cook. And what, what was it for OSHA to stay in the body? Now we know that he taught tantric sex and became known as the, the sex guru. Yeah. Which is funny because if somebody's teaching that now nobody cares. Yes. In the sixties and seventies, it's like
<laugh> Ja horror and it was just so untrue, just so totally and utterly untrue. Cause I, I remember when, you know, on Theran I was dealing with all these stupid journalists and that's all they thought about. And I said, listen, you know, we think about sex about 2% of the time and something else. And 98% of the time, and you think about sex a hundred percent of the time, you know, we're not gonna meet ever, you know, because there's too much of a disparity. Um, but I was saying, I have said it quite a number of times that his, um, carer Niana, I am convinced was his grounding to the earth.
Dr. Reese (00:47:40):
Vive. Yeah. Later
Dr. Reese (00:47:42):
She had a few names right
Later Nirvana. Yes. She was a very, very good friend of mine, very close friend from the beginning to the end.
Dr. Reese (00:47:53):
Um, there are pictures of OSHA holding her hand all the time, holding her hand. She's always next to him. Was she his caretaker slash girlfriend?
You know, you can't even talk about their relationship in those kind of terms. Um, in terms of girlfriend or boyfriend or lover or whatever. Um, it was for me observing them from day one, um, it was just something so much greater. Um, yes, he loved her. He loved her dearly and <laugh>, she never stopped talking about how marvelous he was and everything, which I could totally understand. I wanted to hear every story she had to tell <laugh>. Um, I think it was just something that is very hard for us to fathom if you know, the whole Indian philosophy is tantra and tantrics sex and everything. But if you go back further to tourism, you've got the whole yin yang energy thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yes. And that is sort of has basically no sexual connotations at all. For me, it's a far finer way of describing the balance of everything in the universe, which is always positive, negative, um, passive, aggressive male, female, if you like, it's the balance, which keeps the whole existence in balance, you know, and it's far greater than sex or girlfriends or boyfriends or wives or anything like that.
And um, for me, she fulfilled that role of keeping that balance for him. Um, enabling him to stay on the, on the earth for as long as possible. And you know, it took it out of her too, you know, but, um, yeah, it was quite a, a strong role. For example, one thing is you, you must have heard of the energy dins in Puna Puna one mm-hmm, <affirmative> heard of the energy dins, which are totally chaotic, which if you look at them, you'll think this is a sort of mad house or bed or something. Um, but what he said was even then he had mediums helping him. And he said very explicitly in a, in a discourse somewhere. He said, because I have a male energy, I can't work directly on men. I can work directly on women because then we can keep that balance, that yin yang balance, you know? Right. But I can't work directly on men because it's yang yang <laugh>. So he said, I have to have, um, some woman to help me. And when I go, when I put the energy into the woman and you can see him, you know, touching a woman's third eye or something with a head or something, he said that way I can, the energy can go through me, but trans be transformed into a female energy, which can then work on my male Sonja
Dr. Reese (00:51:23):
Now. I guess it's quite a hard concept to understand, you know, but, uh, basically I'm just trying to say never, ever, ever reduce his work, his vastness to the basic level of lust and sex.
Dr. Reese (00:51:42):
Definitely. Definitely not. In fact far more. I remember reading arguably his most famous book sec from sex to super consciousness consciousness.
Dr. Reese (00:51:54):
And I remember reading it and being like, there's no sex in here. <laugh>
Of course not
Dr. Reese (00:51:59):
Like, I mean, he talks about sex as a doorway yeah. As a doorway to the divine, but he doesn't give like tips and tricks.
No. Well, it's a basic energy. You, you can't live without that. Basic. If you like couldn any energy, you know, it's your life energy, call it to life energy, you know? But if he said life energy to, to super consciousness, nobody would understand. And he was a good showman. He was a very, very good showman. So that was a very catchy title. Six to super consciousness. Got everybody interested in reading
Dr. Reese (00:52:40):
<laugh> he was a shock Jack. He wanted to shock people into awakening. Oh
Totally. His method was shocking.
Dr. Reese (00:52:48):
Shock people into awakening. My perspective is different from years. You were there and I'm, um, in taking it. So <affirmative> and taking it so many years later. And my perspective is that he knew he was creating something that someone like me was gonna ingest 30, 40 years later. So he's laying down the work he's laying down. What's gonna be there because absolutely. Because unlike Jesus, unlike Buddha, unlike Lazu, he's got the technology, he, he can be recorded.
Exactly, exactly. And he said that very clearly, he just said, I want every single word recorded, so there can be no misunderstanding and it will go down from generation to generation. And it's not just the next 30 or 40 years. It's the next 300 or, or 400 years. <laugh>
Dr. Reese (00:53:52):
And, um, he was, he was just laying the groundwork and, um, we were part of this sort of great experiment <laugh> um, which, and you know, sometimes he, he didn't get it quite right. He was experimenting. Nobody had ever done anything like this before Buddhi Buddhas followers were like Budha himself. They were just very simple people. And we came with, as you said, at the beginning with such baggage and Christianity baggage, um, materialism, just so much baggage that he had to try and cut through. And then people got hold of the wrong end of the stick and criticized him for it. You know, not understanding how much he had to deal with and his courage.
Dr. Reese (00:54:48):
Oh my gosh. He had the, the courage is ridiculous.
Yeah. On, on taking on, especially Western people who had no concept of the master disciple relationship. Right. Which Indians do Chinese do Japanese do Western people don't have that concept, you know?
Dr. Reese (00:55:10):
Nope. Nope. If you touch, touch the feet of someone, it looks like you're in a cult of some sort to
Them. Exactly. If you put your hands in dumbest state position, you know?
Dr. Reese (00:55:22):
Yeah. You mentioned Che earlier, Che based on my reading, similar to OSHA, and you can tell OSHA, read a lot of Che.
Yes he did.
Dr. Reese (00:55:35):
Yes. He liked Gersh. Now Gersh was a trickster <laugh> I wouldn't say OSHA was as much of a trickster, but certainly was a trickster and, and people, a lot of people don't understand the masters usually are because they have to create devices.
Dr. Reese (00:55:55):
For the person to wake up or learn a lesson. Mm-hmm <affirmative> one of those devices and lessons was the rolls Royces
Dr. Reese (00:56:06):
And I, and peop people get caught up in that, right? Yes. But this is like his way of getting rid of the people that are caught up in it. Right. Exactly.
Dr. Reese (00:56:16):
Like if you're caught up in the rolls Royces and you think I'm just trying to get rich and all this and bla blah, blah, then you're not for me go away.
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that was the most genius device that any enlightened man has ever created. <laugh> ever the audacity of it. My God
Dr. Reese (00:56:35):
<laugh> ever. And you know, I, once I once saw him in a video say, and it's rare, you don't see too many rolls Royce comments, but they're there, they're, they're very hard to find, but they're there a journalist asked about them and he said, don't you worry about the rolls Royces? Let the rolls Royces do their work.
<laugh> yes. Yes.
Dr. Reese (00:57:00):
I also think almost he was almost poking fun at the Pope a little bit too.
Of course he was not a little bit, a lot.
Dr. Reese (00:57:08):
<laugh> a lot. Cause the Pope is notorious obviously for having riches, right?
Dr. Reese (00:57:14):
Yes. And here's O show the Bo one from a poor village with this massive audience, like the Pope, this, this get up clothing, which you had a part in
Dr. Reese (00:57:31):
And almost a hundred rolls Royces.
Yes. 99. I think you never quite made a hundred. <laugh>
Dr. Reese (00:57:38):
Just sitting there doing nothing.
Dr. Reese (00:57:44):
It's like a baseball card collection or something.
Yes. And, and, and when, when we had the festivals, um, when he decided he'd decide what roles Royce to have, or we would, we would decide on the outfit because we presented him with say, um, usually the festival lasted six or seven days. Right. So we would present him with about 10 outfits and he could choose the ones he liked and which ones he wanted on which day. So when we got the, the, the robe for day three, for example, so maybe this one was blue and, and turquoise or something. So then we would go down to the rolls Royce garage and the guy who was looking after the rolls Royce is a French guy and say, okay, he wants to be color coordinated to find a roll Royce, to color coordinate with this outfit. And we'd give him samples of the fabric that we used. So he color-coordinated his roll Royces with the Roby was wearing that day.
Dr. Reese (00:58:51):
And he would take, he would take his little rides, just like his nap. That was his little.
Dr. Reese (00:58:58):
And he liked the drive. I mean, coming from the village and the place he came from, there was no, no rolls Royces <laugh>.
But you know, with that drive too, also, I had an idea for me because he was riding around. I felt, you know, that we were actually because of Sheila shenanigans, the, we were sometimes actually in quite a lot of danger and I felt he was like a magician or a fairy godmother with the wand, um, weaving a protective spell around Ragni Puram as he drove, you know? Um, and so that his energy could go that much further and, um, yeah. Be a protective shield if you like. That's what I felt.
Dr. Reese (00:59:50):
Let's, let's talk about the clothes real quick. Based on video, I've seen, he pretty much wore just like a white robe in the seventies
In Puna one.
Dr. Reese (01:00:01):
Yes. But then it started changing and you had a part in that you, he found out that you could make clothes, right?
Dr. Reese (01:00:11):
So he put you the work to create and you guys together sort of created this new outfit.
Dr. Reese (01:00:17):
Which he's known for now.
Dr. Reese (01:00:21):
Now this is part of the showmanship he wanted to stand out, I would think.
Dr. Reese (01:00:28):
And cuz the hats, I mean, you don't see hats like that, just hanging around <laugh>, you know, that's
Where you've read my book. So you know my story with this, the current hat and how I'd actually put it in the garbage and, and Nirvana fished it out with two fingers and said, what about this? And I said, no, no, no, no mistake, mistake. We say, she said, no, let me go and try. And she went, um, and tried it on and he liked it. Just, he wanted it a bit bigger because he wanted it lighter. Um, you know, Kevin so much, I don't know what he was doing. Why did he want those hats all the time? Was it just appearance or, you know, somebody said to me, oh, it was esoteric that he needed to have the hat on. So that the top of his head wasn't exposed because it was so open because of it was the top Chuck row or something.
I, I just don't know. But you also have to understand to his playfulness and his creativity and his, well, if we can do it this way, why not? If I've got this girl who could make me fancy clothes, why not use it? You know? And that, I mean, that was his genius when he had people around him, whatever they could do, he took that skill that they had turned it into something totally creative and also turned it into a way that he could make them learn and, and all kinds of things like that too. Yes. So, um, I think, yes, it was because I had got a bit of a background in, in sewing and theater costumes and everything. So I could sort of come up with that. And
Dr. Reese (01:02:21):
So, so the infamous hat was in the garbage
<laugh> cause the, the last hat that he wore until he died. Yeah. That came out of my, the garbage. Yes. I had dumped it there. Cause, cause I was in despair. Couldn't think of a something cuz the hat he had had before was too hot. Yeah. Oregon. Some was hot.
Dr. Reese (01:02:47):
Well, if I had to guess my guess would be, it was showmanship was trying to stand out and trying to bring people again, shock people into awakening. And if you can stand out, look, it worked for Howard stern.
<laugh> no, it was definitely part of it. He was a show and he had to be, he was going to reach as many people as he wanted. He had to stand
Dr. Reese (01:03:20):
Out. Michael Jackson, Madonna, Howard stern. You just look at the massive celebrities of the last 50 years, go back, further Elvis Presley. These people stood out by doing things that were as eccentric.
Yes. Not, not what is, what was expected. You know, most people he's been criticized for that. You know, he can't be a holy man. A holy man is sitting in a hat with no possessions or anything. Yeah. And I said, no, no, no, no. That's not my way. You know, but he wasn't attached to any of it, but he knew, you know, if he was going to reach people, he had to make a stand and the clothes were part of it and the choices.
Dr. Reese (01:04:13):
Yeah. Because you look at again, you look at other Indian gurus did not gain as big of a following as he did.
Dr. Reese (01:04:25):
Uh, yeah. In my estimation that's that's the biggest following since Buddha himself.
Definitely. Absolutely. Cause ger didn't make it. I think, no
Dr. Reese (01:04:36):
RG again. He didn't have such for me. I mean, Asha said that once he said, I'm lucky I've got better disciples than ger dad
Dr. Reese (01:04:49):
And ger was, he was so, so much into the trickery.
Dr. Reese (01:04:55):
And he would turn people off. Yes. So people would run away from him and be like that. Guy's crazy. You know?
Dr. Reese (01:05:02):
And so his following didn't, I mean his disciples got a bigger book than he does, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. And um, who was um, Christian Murti yeah. Similar thing. I mean, Christian mur is beautiful, you know, he's lovely. But he hasn't got that ability to connect with people and stand out and therefore get as big of following as OSHA can. I mean, you know, one of the people we've got lady Gaga who loves OSHA mm-hmm <affirmative> you know, and Tom cruise, Tom cruise, he said he drew on OSHA's book for one of his, his silly films that he made, you know, and
Dr. Reese (01:05:45):
Yes. Yes, exactly. And then, um, even that we, we, about two years ago, there was a photo of what is his name? Will Smith. What's his son's name?
Dr. Reese (01:05:59):
Yes. And he was carrying an OSHA book, you know, he was just, he doesn't say anything. He was just, um, photographed. He had an OSHA book in his arm, you know? So, so O you could reach such a variety of people and that's his genius.
Dr. Reese (01:06:19):
And that's the thing about it. People don't even have to know the story. They don't have to know about Oregon. The two PS, nothing. No. All they need to do is listen to him and read the books.
<laugh> yes, exactly.
Dr. Reese (01:06:35):
You know, he, he loves Zen and so you're a Zen gal. I like Zen as well. And so I feel like he almost created a life that was a Zen Cohen.
Dr. Reese (01:06:50):
The whole, his whole life was a coin.
Yes. Yes. And I mean, don't ever, ever, ever try to define him. <laugh>, you know, even when you asked me, what did it feel like to, to be in a but field? How can I define that? It was it it's mystery, you know, as you said, his famous quote, life is a mystery to be lived, not to be solved and you have to live with that mystery with that, not knowing. And that's a real challenge to us, with our, our minds who like everything concrete and formulated and black and white, you know, you just have to learn to live with that unknown mystery. But if you really can do it, it's ex extraordinary.
Dr. Reese (01:07:37):
I have, uh, an ashram I retreat to every now and again in New York. And just, I think last year I was there and this young lady comes out and, and we get into a conversation and, and she says, uh, who's your guru?
Dr. Reese (01:07:56):
<affirmative> I, I say, I smile. <laugh> I say, oh, show.
Dr. Reese (01:08:02):
And she stops eating looks at me, eyes wide open. And she goes really? And she like sits down. She's like, tell me more.
<laugh> <laugh> really, oh, I was gonna say, I think she should away
Dr. Reese (01:08:15):
Her first question is, what did you think of wild, wild country?
Oh God. <laugh>.
Dr. Reese (01:08:24):
And I said, well, you know, it really wasn't about OSHE.
No, wasn't at all.
Dr. Reese (01:08:31):
And, but they did made him look like they made him look like something that he's not, there's not enough context in that documentary. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so there's a lot of people, thousands upon thousands of people now being introduced to OSHA through this documentary on Netflix.
Dr. Reese (01:08:55):
And I think OSHA would've loved it. And I think so many people are now knocking on the OSHA door because some people will just accept it as this weird thing that happened and they'll have their opinion. But there's another demographic of people with curiosity. Yes. That say, hold on here. I wanna know more about this guy. Forget the Sheila lady. Forget the commune itself. Look at the people. Right. They're happy.
Dr. Reese (01:09:29):
I wanna know more about this guy. Then they, they find him on YouTube. They watch a video and he's saying something that just penetrates their entire being. Next thing you know, they're reading the book, next thing you know? Boom, boom, boom. So even though this documentary doesn't depict him in the greatest light because they just, I guess they didn't want to, for whatever reason, it's bringing more people to him and he is becoming more popular now than ever before.
Yes, yes, yes. And he actually said that. He said, you know, don't think it'll stop when I die. You know, it'll just, um, balloon bigger and bigger. I know. In fact, sometimes I sort of, at the end of the day, I think, oh, I've gotta go and have a walk because there's so much going on with OSHA now, you know? And, um, it's just sort of mind boggling how much she has penetrated people and their hearts to their beings, to such an extent. And then they come up with a different creativity, you know, and it's just extraordinary, extraordinary, beautiful.
Dr. Reese (01:10:49):
He's been dead for 30 years And he is more popular now than he was 30 years ago. It it's mind blowing to sort of let the mind, let the imagination go 30 years even further and think about how popular he's gonna be in 2050.
Mm. Because I think because the world is going through such a trauma right now and such chaos. And remember that was one of his biggest things. I mean, one of his biggest, um, teaching devices was creating chaos. You know, we used to laugh and say he is pulling the rug from underneath our feet because in that moment you have to be mindless. You can't quite cope with this chaos. And I'm seeing it all around me all the time, every day and every kind of media, you know, but out of that chaos can come a better understanding for those who are more intelligent. Those unfortunately, who are much weaker might go under, but there's a core group of people who are going to come out of this much, much, much stronger. And he's aiming at those people.
Dr. Reese (01:12:19):
Yes. And his main teaching in my opinion, is Zorba de Budha. Yes. The new man creating the new man that is half Buddha, half Zorba, half, you know, have fun, love celebratory lifestyle, along with silence and solitude and awareness, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative>
Dr. Reese (01:12:44):
And that that's attractive to people because when they think of spirituality, they automatically think meditating under a tree or, you know, renouncing shaving their head and becoming a monk. And here's O show saying, don't become a monk.
Need to do that. Look how happy the birds are. You know, they're not sort of sitting under a tree and staffing themselves and everything. <laugh>,
Dr. Reese (01:13:14):
It's just this potential that's in all of us. And, you know, you can, you can become self-realized and enlightened. If you're a plumber, if you're, if you're a teacher, if you're, if you're a carpenter, it doesn't matter. You know, it's, you know, it it's just about practice.
Mm. And being aware when you're practicing.
Dr. Reese (01:13:39):
Yeah. I mean, I, I could talk for another hour easily with you on all this. I'm looking at my notes and I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't get there. I didn't get there. I didn't get there. <laugh>
You never will. Was that sure? You just,
Dr. Reese (01:13:55):
No. What is it about the book of secrets that kind of makes that his, almost his master work out of all his books? I mean, it's like 1200 pages. It's just, it's massive
Because secrets, you mean with 112 methods of meditation?
Dr. Reese (01:14:21):
Yes. Yeah. Well, there you go. You've got your, your blueprint there right there. He said, I remember because actually that was the first whole, total English series that he gave, which was the first book, which actually I edited I'm very, was very happy to do. Um, and he said, there is out of these 112 methods of meditation. There is a method for every single person past, present, and future. And all you have to do is find it. And I think that's why it's so strong. I mean, it's a very important series. I, you know, I was present for the very first series when he was still in, in Mumbai. And actually, um, when I, when he sent me back to London to open the center, I only had that series on tape. It was the only one that I had. So it was very important for me. And it turned to many, many, many, many, many people on <laugh> incredible.
Dr. Reese (01:15:34):
That book is massive. And I've heard people actually say that. Yeah, they they've had their self realization, enlightenment moment in the middle of that book, like, yes. And they're just like, there's no reason to read anymore. <laugh>
No, cause you know, it's at that point, he used to say, it's that aha moment. It's at that point, ah, I got it. Understand. It doesn't mean that you've got all away, but you know, you've got that very strong sense of, I know where I'm going and that's, um, a very, very valuable thing to get
Dr. Reese (01:16:16):
OSHA. Didn't leave his room that much. It seems when he was in P oh one P oh two and Oregon. What, what was he doing in his room? I I've heard, he likes to go into the bathtub, but
<laugh> yes, that's my thing. Um, see bath. He used to have his bath in the morning when pina one. Um, <affirmative> um, ranch probably still in the morning cuz in the ranch. Oh, I don't know. He, he did read the paper. Um, he read the daily newspaper until the very, very end. He had quite a selection of Indian newspapers in India. He got them in, in on Theran. He had a TV on Theran. He didn't have a TV as far as I remember in, um, Puna two or Puna one, but he did have a TV on Theran. Um, he was reading, um, <affirmative> um, still even, you know, not as much in, in P one, he was a ferocious reader. He would kind of go through 10 books a day. You know, he was to despair of the librarians, not as much, you know, but, um, he did read, but basically he just sat silently and that's what he was about.
You know, he didn't need to do anything. And as I said, there was always a business session in the afternoons to the nap and that was regular Puna, one ranch and Puna two, where he did what we called Ashra business or commune business, you know, and for the discourse, when he was still doing the question and answer ones, that's when he would be given people's questions and he would choose which ones he wanted to answer that is all done in the afternoon, but still, still, it would only be his secretary, which would've been the lame or Sheila orand and Niana there with him. There would not be other people only very, very occasionally. Did he ask somebody to come in to talk to them?
Dr. Reese (01:18:56):
Yeah, it seems that he just liked to kind of be alone. Just didn't want didn't mingle.
There's no point, you know, in fact I remember very, very early on, it was still an early Mumba and some Indians sort, it might be nice to have a party for him <laugh> so they arranged this party, you know, I was there and I looked at him and I just felt that he simply couldn't connect with us at all. You know, and, and this was immaterial to him. And I remember just going and sitting next to him, not saying a word, but just sitting next to him to sort of give him some support, if you like, or protection, no point in, in socializing, you know, he had his work to do, and that was to pull us out of our baggage and conditioning onto was and bigger and bitter things.
Dr. Reese (01:20:01):
He definitely was determined. I mean, even the stories before his enlightenment, he was determined at like seven, eight years old. He was just ferociously. Um, trying to find the quote unquote answers
Inquiring all the time. Yes. I mean just a brilliant mind, which you don't associate with an enlightened person because you're supposed to be out of your mind. But I mean, he had such a brilliant mind
Dr. Reese (01:20:36):
How much freedom did the secretaries have? Because they essentially, my understanding is they were, You know, they were the, the general manager, so to speak of everything because he was in the room, he didn't mingle, you know, and we saw in wild, wild country that Sheila just, I guess you can say went overboard, how much freedom was there and was OSHA really paying attention to everything they did cause could couldn't they come into those business meetings and just omit things and not tell 'em things.
Of course. And she was telling lies all the time. She said, he said, do this and said do that. And in fact, um, I've just, uh, wrote something, uh, you know, for OSHA news, uh, our sort of online magazine and thing. And I didn't think anything of it, but, um, um, the guy who runs the Sonya Wiki Suge, he said, wow. He said, this is one of the very rare occasions where we see OSHA saying something should happen. And Sheila deliberately going against that and deliberately not doing what he said. Um, so actually Kevin Theran was a little bit of a different story to Puna one and Puna two and Puna one, it was always lame and lame was like 100% devoted to him. And I don't think she would ever have dreamed of not doing what he wanted, you know, and she was very tuned into him too.
And she was never going to, um, do something or sabotage what he wa wanted or something, whenever there were questions, she would take it into him and he would say, no, you should do this. Or you should do that. And she was very good, uh, about that. And in PTU, it was an under, um, that I have a bit more of a question about, but I think she was also very, very clear that what it <affirmative> that whatever he said goes, you know, and not to interfere with her own interpretation or something, Sheila was a completely different kettle of fish. And, um, she just went out on a limb and sort of basically she had no real understanding of her show at all.
Dr. Reese (01:23:19):
And, and she's, she's on record saying that she know she wasn't into the meditation and stuff. So
Yeah, I mean, she just had no understanding of him. She wanted to possess him, you know, she wanted the glory of being his number, his right hand person, you know, she wanted that sort of prestige and power. She was after power and prestige and he was her way to get it. And so it was bound to go wrong.
Dr. Reese (01:23:48):
Yeah. It seems that she felt that he was incompetent and unable to make the big decisions. And so she felt the ticket upon herself to do things.
God, she is just anal an evil.
Dr. Reese (01:24:06):
Do you think, in, in, at the ranch in Oregon, do you think one of the reasons things didn't end well, because of all the controversy, it attracted more people to em, in the long run, even though at the time it probably seemed really bad.
Yes. But you have to remember that both he and Niana died directly as a result of what happened at Dr. NPO. And I don't think that he planned to die as quickly as he did. Um, because he had said quite a few things of, you know, I'm not gonna leave you, don't worry. I'm not gonna leave you, you know? And, um, I personally felt that he died before his time. And so I, I can't say that the ranch was okay. And a lot of people were quite damaged by that. Um, had quite a hard time and whereas some were fine, others weren't.
And, um, I don't think it was, you know, you, you are saying which a lot of people are saying and which I would say hesitate a little bit about that. Everything that happened was okay with him, no, where his work was concerned, then he was dead clear, straight. It should happen this way. Right. And he needed people who would honor that and understand that and do it, you know, for other little things, you know, what he was wearing or something that didn't matter at all, you know, but where his work was concerned and Sheila neither understood nor was she interested in, in doing that she had a different agenda, which was power.
Dr. Reese (01:26:10):
Hmm. Do you think that him going silent was a contribution to it taking a left turn?
You know what I think you have to go right back? My understanding was he had no intention whatsoever of staying in the United States for any length of time. He wanted to go to the Himalaya and he wanted lame and his other, um, more wealthy Indian Sanin to find him a place in the Himalayas. I am almost a hundred percent sure. And cause I remember, and remember, I, I don't, I can't sort of quote or something because I lived in the house, I was picking things up, you know, somebody would say this to something else or Nirvana would raise their eyes to heaven, sort of just without even saying any words, you know, and we were getting pretty ill by the, by the, by 1980, after being in India for 10 years, you know, to taken a good, quite a toll on his body. And I remember one particular occasion where one woman, woman was quite ill and he said, go back to your home country and get healthy and then come back.
And she said, I can't do that. I will never leave you. You know? And I think that sort of set him on another track because for me, the idea was he was very strong, go back to your home country and get healthy and then come back. That's what he said when he was going to America. Mm. Right. And then Sheila did not ask him about the purchase of the ranch. Mm. She presented to him as an accomplished fact. She bought it without asking him. So there he was, for me, he was in quite a quandary that he was in America. The Indian Sanin had not got a place for him in India. And Sheila had got this place, a ranch in the west of America, just, it was inconceivable. Um, but what would he do if he wanted to carry on his work? He didn't want to go back to Puna because Puna had become much too small.
You know, it was very crowded where we were Oregon park and there were a lot of problems because of that. So my feeling was is that he basically had no option, the option that he wanted wasn't presented to him. So he had to go with Theran. And another thing I have said, I don't know if I said it in my book. Yes, I did. You know, like right from the beginning. And very early days, he called lock me up to his house and I drove her up there. So I'm talking from very firsthand experience. And she went and she came out and she was shaking. And I said, you know, after a while I said, what happened? And she said, he told me to go back to India immediately and find him a place because he doesn't want to be here. So my feeling that those three, those years of silence was he was just, he was marking time and he wasn't going to really interfere or, or give any real guidance of what was happening. Um, because I don't think he saw that this was what he, his work really was about. You know, he said it a few times. I don't want you building houses or building roads. You know, I want you to be meditating. So Les and essence, or I, you know, essence is super positive and they've learned a lot from him. So we tried to turn it into something of a real learning experience. And it was, it was a massive learning experience, you know,
Dr. Reese (01:30:27):
Has created a city
And, you know, I mean, phenomenal what we did.
Dr. Reese (01:30:32):
That's, it's not even comprehendable, it's like, it's like, what, what do you mean? You created a city from scratch.
Yeah, yeah. From nothing, you know? So, so it was, it ended up, you know, a massive learning experience, but there was a bit of, there was a downside. I don't think it, it had a choice. You wouldn't have gone for teaching lessons in that particular way,
Dr. Reese (01:30:58):
By coming to America and creating a city, having disciples wearing the same color robes. Especially at that time, there's no way that the establishment wouldn't look at that. The American government, the Christian government wouldn't look at that and be like, okay, there's something funky going on over there.
Dr. Reese (01:31:32):
Our radar is up.
Dr. Reese (01:31:35):
And then you listen to him and every now and again, he's poking fun at the Pope. Or he basically saying
Dr. Reese (01:31:43):
Ronald Reagan, he's saying, religions need to be dissolved. This is threatening to the establishment. Big time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> at a high, high level.
Dr. Reese (01:31:59):
I'm reminded of someone like Malcolm X who did similar.
Dr. Reese (01:32:06):
He was killed.
Dr. Reese (01:32:08):
Martin Luther king was killed. Gandhi was killed. JFK was killed. So here's this guy creating a city, talking about religion needs to go, bye. Bye <laugh>. And he's got a hundred rolls Royces. What? I mean, of course the, the feds are gonna be on alert. And when everything started to get, Harry will say, I would think the establishment was like, okay, this is our chance. This is our chance right now to infiltrate. And they got him into a jail.
Dr. Reese (01:32:49):
You know, on, on immigration law, right? Yeah. It was on, it was on immigration law. They got him into a jail.
Dr. Reese (01:32:57):
And from what OSHA says, they passed him through like six different prison, little prison cells.
Yes. So we lost track of him, which is illegal.
Dr. Reese (01:33:07):
Yeah. And he claims that they put Thum in his food mm-hmm
<affirmative> or something. Yeah.
Dr. Reese (01:33:18):
And Thum and Valium is untraceable.
Dr. Reese (01:33:24):
And it takes a long time to deteriorate the body. It's not like a 10 minute thing. So in a sense, if this is all true, they killed him too.
Dr. Reese (01:33:37):
Where's that documentary.
Exactly. Well, you have to say it <laugh>, you've got your audience. You can reach a lot of people. You can say it.
Dr. Reese (01:33:53):
Yeah. And he lived, what, five years more after Oregon,
Just not even 5, 4, 4 years. And the last year he was so weak. There were months when he couldn't even come out and talk to us or be with us. And then, then he even stopped talking and he would just come and sit with us, you know? Um, cause he was too weak.
Dr. Reese (01:34:24):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm reminded of two other spiritual teachers who, when one of 'em just passed away last year and Ron does mm-hmm And tick not Han.
Dr. Reese (01:34:42):
Yes. Who is? He's still alive.
Dr. Reese (01:34:48):
And they're, they're both the same age as OSHA.
Dr. Reese (01:34:52):
And so I've thought about that. Like, you know, if O show made it he'd be about 88 years old right now.
Yes. I think he's 12 years older than me. I'm 76. So, um, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think he could, he, I think his plan was to go on for much longer than he did.
Dr. Reese (01:35:13):
Well, he died very young. When you think about it, 59.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Reese (01:35:19):
He and everyone says this, he looked a lot older than he was
Dr. Reese (01:35:26):
<affirmative>. Why do you think that is because of his illnesses? Because he was enlightened and had this massive consciousness expansion at only 21?
No, I think it was basically, he was working so hard on, you know, a million different levels. Most of which we can't even fathom, you know, cuz he wasn't only concerned with his, his disciples or his son, you know, and over and over again, he talked about the state of the earth and how we were damaging it by our overpopulation and how in pina one, he suggested to us, he didn't force us. He did suggest us that we were sterilized because there were too many people on the planet and he got quite hammered for that, you know, but already he was concerned, you know, we heading in the wrong direction and he was doing his level best to make people as aware as possible.
Dr. Reese (01:36:26):
And, and I, you know, so I think we, we can't even fathom what levels he was working on and um, trying to sort of help consciousness on the planet. And you know, there are people who, who, um, I think have picked up a message. They may not even like him or anything or know of him even, you know, like for example, David Attenborough, we've got some great people who are talking and talking and talking, but I think OSHA is doing it on another level. And I think it really took a toll on his body.
Dr. Reese (01:37:04):
Many people have said he's appeared to them just like he appeared to you in their dream.
<laugh> yes, I think so. <laugh>
Dr. Reese (01:37:12):
And maybe he was working double, like you said, like he was working on other levels.
Oh, that's what he said. You know, he said, now I go without the body, I can be all over the place. So no, but, but, um, I think the, the, the last part of the ranch really did take it out of him, his physical, but he really, um, took a massive toll and um, and he never recovered. He never recovered that, that amazing energy that he had. It was still there. Believe he, we were still there, but, um, because as I say, I think it is important to know. He wasn't just talking to his disciples. He was trying to cover the full spectrum of human conditioning on the planet, you know, and, and try to, to change the energy of a lot of destruction and selfishness and greed, which we are seeing all the time now. And hopefully people will wake up a bit.
Dr. Reese (01:38:21):
He was talking to me 30 years later.
Dr. Reese (01:38:26):
Yes. And, and many others just like me.
Dr. Reese (01:38:30):
I mean, there's, there's Facebook groups out there, OSHA, Facebook groups, and there's just, there's thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people. Yeah. That definitely weren't around in the eighties, seventies and eighties.
Well, there's a couple that I support you doing the OSHA podcast. Mm-hmm <affirmative> have you seen that?
Dr. Reese (01:38:50):
Oh yeah. The love OSHA podcast.
Yes. Swam and Chetna mm-hmm <affirmative> and they, I mean, neither of them met OSHA. I met Chetna 12 years, 12, 14 years ago in England, you know, and we've become very, very good friends and I'm a bit of a sort of dictionary for them, you know, what happened? So, and so what was going on? So, so Chatman Siram said all you, people are dying off so quickly. We just wanted to get your words before you die. <laugh> so yes, go for it while we still alive <laugh> with hand, you know, but you know, the fact that, that how amazing they've understood, you know, and your understanding, Kevin, I mean, I can just know from the way you speaking is your understanding is very deep and this is too, and yet you never meet OSHA in the body. I think it's like a miracle.
Dr. Reese (01:39:53):
All right. Venus it's it is really been a pleasure. And I have another interview in 15 minutes <laugh>
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, you go <laugh>
Dr. Reese (01:40:01):
So my energy is gonna be burnt up in a, in a few hours, so
Yeah. Okay. Well, it was great speaking to you. I was, I was a bit nervous, but you, um, were very good the way you spoke and, and I can just sense that your love and understanding of OSHA is 100% genuine. And then that makes it very easy for me to talk to. Um, cause I don't have to explain. You've already understood. So <laugh> that's good. My pleasure
Dr. Reese (01:40:36):
Vina, thank you for your time. Yeah. This is been the longest I've ever had a guest on. I'm pretty sure <laugh> and if you've been paying attention to this podcast from the beginning, I'm sure you can piece together. Why I suggest that if you enjoyed this episode, you go back to episode number 42 and listen to pre fisherman and you can sort of piece some things together. Well, that's it for today. If you're looking for my work, of course, go to Dr. reese.com. That's Dr. Spelled out and I'll talk to you on the next episode.
Speaker 1 (01:41:22):
Thanks for listening to inner peace with Dr. Reese. If this episode opened your heart, feel free to share on social media and tell your loved ones. Also be sure to subscribe. So you never miss an episode until next time.