Inner Peace w/ Dr. Reese
Nov. 29, 2020

Dying Twice w/ Rev. Peter Panagore

Dying Twice w/ Rev. Peter Panagore

In episode # 74, Dr. Reese talks with Rev. Peter Panagore, who had two experiences in his life where he died and came back. In this riveting recording, they explore all the details, feelings and mystical experiences that comes with death... and maybe even more important, life. 


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--- Send in a voice message:

Dr. Reese (00:00:00):
Peter, welcome to the inner peace podcast.

Peter Panagore (00:01:13):
I'm very glad to be here. Thanks for having me, Kevin.

Dr. Reese (00:01:16):
So when you were 21 years old, you say that you died, you were climbing a mountain in Canada and it was cold out. And you say that you ended up exhaustion hypothermia. Take me to the side of that mountain to your last breath.

Peter Panagore (00:01:46):
It had been a really long night of exposure and frostbite and hypothermia. And by the time we were clipped into the mountain, uh, on our last rappel and unable to move, the rope was jammed. Hmm. I went through the last stages of hypothermia. I opened my coat, I got colder thinking I was hot and I began to fall asleep and I would collapse and pull myself back up again. Cuz I was strapped into the mountain. It was harnessed. I had a harness and I was strapped into the mountain. Right. I pull myself back up to the ledge and, and then I, it happened a bunch of times. And then I stood up this last time from having fallen asleep. And as I stood up, I got tunnel vision like a, like a spotlight on a stage going fade to black rapidly wide. I had a very wide black ring around my entire peripheral vision.

Peter Panagore (00:02:56):
And then it narrowed down in seconds and I watched it go. And as it closed to blackness, I still retained consciousness, which was different from when I fell asleep. I knew that I had fallen asleep. Right. And now I'm, I've blacked out, but I'm I'm, I don't feel myself standing, but I don't feel myself falling. And I feel myself conscious and I was confused. The confusion didn't last long. Uh, what I did next was look out into the horizon and see this incredibly vast infinite darkness that I'd never seen before. Mm. It, it filled space and beyond space. It was extraordinarily other.

Peter Panagore (00:03:55):
And I stared out and as I stared out, I saw far, far in the distance, uh, pinprick of light, like an infinity away. And this pinprick of light rushed to me across this vast distance, faster than the speed of light. And it bigger, my it did, it filled my entire view. Yeah. But it, it was this paradox of not only filling my entire view as it rushed toward me, it was also very specific at the same time. So it was both, both immense and tight. And it's tightness was this like com this communication to me of intelligence and power. And it spoke without language to me, I'm taking you. And I resisted, I didn't know what was going on, but I wasn't going. And it, and it, my resistance, it had no effect at all. I, I put up all the strength I had and it was nothing.

Peter Panagore (00:04:55):
It just came and, and communicated this to me and enveloped me and took me. And then I knew I was inside this, like a, a enrapt in an, in an intellect, like an intellect. I can't describe to you. That was also comfortable. I was no longer concerned about what it had just happened. Right. My resistance was gone and I was carried up the tunnel, but the tunnel was this wide infinite space be a narrow channel as well. And I traveled this great distance and no distance at all. I, it was this sort of instant transportation. So it didn't feel like it took forever. It felt like it took no time at all. And the next thing I knew, I was insight. I was sort of popped into or left in or enveloped by or the, or the entity. The, I call this the, my angel of death.

Peter Panagore (00:05:58):
Um, either I was left in this space or it expanded to the, the whole space itself. I can't really, I, I, I often say I popped into it, but the truth more to the truth is I don't really know what happened. I just, was it, it just, and it was, it was this, this entity that carried me was sort of the, the totality that I could experience of the, of the infinity as it carried me. And when I was in, then I was in this, I was in this darkness. I was in the middle of this eternal darkness that was, I could see in every direction it was dark and illuminated at the same time. And I could not see the end of it. Go ahead. Your

Dr. Reese (00:06:41):
Awareness is still there.

Peter Panagore (00:06:43):
I was aware that I was suddenly myself and I had not been myself that my previous sense of awareness, uh, was not my true self. It was this, it was my, my, myself. That was a, a mask. I wore a costume, a clothing, uh, uh, I, I, I shed that. And I was suddenly content with being who I'd always been and had forgotten. And I was, so I was, I, my awareness was, was that, and my awareness was also all these things were one thing, my, my awareness of my consciousness and the fact that I could see in every direction, they weren't separate things, right. It wasn't like I had a pair of eyes going into a brain. It was like, my consciousness was self aware and could see at the same time,

Dr. Reese (00:07:34):
Can't see your hand

Peter Panagore (00:07:36):
Body, no hands, body

Dr. Reese (00:07:37):

Peter Panagore (00:07:37):
Body gone. No DNA. No here's. And here's the here's, here's the thing I've been, I've not been saying very clearly because I didn't, it scares people. Um, because it is no thing. It is nothing, nothing, no thing. This is nothing I'm in. And they're like, how can God be nothing? What's how can it be? Well, because beyond my capacity to explain it, all I know is that I had no molecules and there were no quirks and Noons. There was no galaxies. There was no nothing. Right. But there was everything. And it was all around me. And, and as I became aware of my true self. And so people say to me, um, when my soul goes to heaven, that that was not my experience. My soul does not go to heaven. I go to heaven. That's me. This gets left behind this body gets left behind.

Peter Panagore (00:08:39):
And so I then, and I tell this story in a sequence of events, but there's no time. This is, I am not only in no thing. I am in no time, because time and space are, you know, they're together. You get time, you get space, you get no space, you got no time. And so this is all time and no time at the same moment. And it's not like, it's, it's not, it's when I say it's timelessness. It's not like, like a, a, an episode of the Twilight zone where everybody stops moving and you're able to move between people because you're in between the second. It's not like that at all, because it's because it's all time, all time. And, and time is not just this, this linear thing that runs out from the beginning of the big bang. It's like, there are, there's more to it than that. And, and so I, I pick a sequence to tell, to tell the story, but it's not. It all happened at once

Dr. Reese (00:09:36):
Goma, the Budha and his ancient Sutra always used the word nothingness.

Peter Panagore (00:09:45):
It is nothingness

Dr. Reese (00:09:46):

Peter Panagore (00:09:47):
It is nothingness. And it's not, it's a fullness of nothingness. It's a, it's a, it's, it's paradoxical the, the, anything some people say to me, well, God must have a reason for whatever that thing is. And I say, if you think that your capacity for reasoning is the same as God's the, no, the answer is no. If you're equating a reason for something to happen, then no, I disagree. But if you're saying that the, the capacity of God's reason is a capital R and, and so far beyond our ability to understand, then I say, yes, okay. The complexity of it, of the, of the possibility of existing in paradox. So this is, this is a nothingness, and this is a fullness at the same time. Yeah. And, and I was unafraid. I was absolutely contact.

Dr. Reese (00:10:42):
Sure, sure. No, they say many gurus, mystics, many have said that, you know, when you die, they use the analogy of taking off a pair of shoes.

Peter Panagore (00:10:56):
<laugh> yeah.

Dr. Reese (00:10:57):
There's a

Peter Panagore (00:10:57):
Re old shoes.

Dr. Reese (00:10:58):
There's a relaxation to it. Yes. There's a relief. Yep. To it.

Peter Panagore (00:11:06):
That's exactly right.

Dr. Reese (00:11:08):
The fear that comes with death is ego base. Right. We just don't. Yeah. We don't wanna trap our, our story, our life,

Peter Panagore (00:11:16):
Our illusion.

Dr. Reese (00:11:18):
Yes. Yes.

Peter Panagore (00:11:20):
And I, my illusion was gone. And then I said, I tell this in a sequence, there was like a portal opened in front of me. Um, and this portal could be, um, described in lots of different ways, but it was a, it was an opening. And this opening had a, an, an infinitely long arcing tunnel that I could see through it to somewhere else. And the, and the surface of this tunnel was transparent, translucent and solid at the same time. And it was this flowing sort of, it was flowing. There was this flow to it. And I could see clearly through it as if it wasn't there. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I could see the flow of it, uh, uh, sort of the depth I could see into the flow of it. So say, I, this is totally wrong of me to use numbers, because there are no numbers there, but say it's like a foot thick, and I can see that entire inside of that.

Peter Panagore (00:12:14):
Right. And then I could see the surface on top, all at the same time. And, and so I was attracted to this thing and I touched it with the orb of my consciousness and it flowed into me. And it turned out that the very surface of this, the very flow itself was the presence of the holy divine, the, the all, and all the overwhelming oneness of being the totality of all light and love and beauty, joy, truth, knowledge, understanding, wisdom. All of this came flowing into me. And I heard my soul name called. I knew that I was known, and it was, there was no language. And I, and it, wasn't the name Peter that I wear. I have Peter nest here. This is my Peter. The skin I'm living in is not what I'm talking about. The, the sole name was, is unpronounceable to me, it's the, it's the thing that called me into being, it's the thing that made my soul exist, not by Peter exist.

Peter Panagore (00:13:10):
Peter is like this afterthought thing. It was really the, I could see, I saw the, the birth of my soul. I could see the, the, the moment of my, of being called into being, and there was N there was this long E uh, everlasting nature, not quite eternal nature of my soul, but the, the essence of my being is eternal, cuz it's part of the much larger whole. So I'm both limited from it and unlimited to it. Um, and, and, and I am separated from it in this limitation. And I knew I was creature made by creator. And when I say that, people are like, well, you know, all creatures of God, the winged ones and the feathery ones and the, you know, the four footed ones and that's true, but this is something different. This is the very essence of the consciousness itself is creature. And, and that, that created, um, made. And I, and, and I could see other lives. I could see other lives and they in timelessness, they were, I think concurrent because my soul exists in timelessness.

Dr. Reese (00:14:24):
So are you saying you saw your Kaha records?

Peter Panagore (00:14:27):
I guess. Yeah. I could use a Kaha records. I could use that, that language. I can't see them now. I saw them and, and I'm not even sure that those lives are lived in this reality. I can't see that now. So all I know is that that none of them were me. None of these lives were me. I'm only this soul. I then went through an experience of hell, the, the hell of my own making as Peter and all the suffering I gave away in my life. I, it was my karma, I, everything I gave away, I got to keep everything. I gave away everything, all the love I gave away. I got to keep that too. All the suffering I gave away. I got to keep that too. And in order for me to have the fuller experience, I can say after the effect, uh, because at the time I didn't know this in order for me to enter more fully into the heaven, I had to lose the baggage things.

Peter Panagore (00:15:22):
I can't bring with me. I can't go in there carrying these things. And so it was like a, I went through my life review. My life review was to go through the sequence of events of my life. Every single time I hurt somebody in my life from I intended to hurt them and I didn't intend to hurt them. And I, and I saw it from inside their lives. I didn't see it from my, I saw it from my point of view too, but I saw it from inside their lives while I was seeing it from my point of view. And I, and my point of view included my rationalizations for causing their pain. Oh, she hurt me. I'm gonna hurt her back, whatever, you know, and it turned out that all the pain I gave away was 10,000 times greater than ever. I had imagined it would be.

Peter Panagore (00:16:04):
And that the amount of suffering, because, because I got to, because the, the karma I carried with me was much bigger, had more weight to it than I ever imagined. Yeah. And, and simultaneous to this experience, there was also the voice with no sound that was all of this vast expanse of eternity, sort of concentrated next to me. But I couldn't see, I couldn't see the speaker of the voice because it was all this. And yet the voice was right next to me, outside of me, and very much inside of me saying, I love you. I made you, I forgive you. And so while I'm going through this hell, I'm being, I, I go through this hell. I find myself guilty of all these things. I can see very clearly that I, I was wrong with these things. I, I, and I knew that the knower with the capital K knew me.

Peter Panagore (00:16:58):
There was no place in me that was hidden. And so, as this is going on, I also see all of humanity. And I see all of humanity inside the matrix of the structure, not of earth, but of the entire universe and that the structure of the entire universe it's N and is not my fault that I caused this pain. Yes, I chose willful action. And yes, I accidentally hurt people. And for those things, I carried the karma with me, but the origin of it is not my fault. I didn't create darkness in the world. I didn't create the universe. I'm part of it. And so that was, there's this great equality of, of the nature of the suffering that we cause each other in comparison to the infinity of the design of the divine. Mm. And the love that was coming into me and the love that was given to me, I was cleansed.

Peter Panagore (00:17:55):
I was emptied of all of this burned away. And then the fullness entered me, which is, is like all those things I mentioned, plus adoration and bliss and healing and wholeness healing. End of suffering. I forgot what pain was. I, I suffering it. Wasn't like, I, I remembered my suffering. I didn't remember my suffering. It was gone. It was emptied. And I was totally infilled with the one with the oneness of being, and yet still a separate entity. And it was, I was still because infinity is so great. It's so vast that even in that aware and, uh, it enlightened space, I was still less than I was still creature created.

Dr. Reese (00:18:47):
Beautiful. I think it's beautiful.

Peter Panagore (00:18:50):
I, I get a conversation. I say, am I dead? And the voice says, you're dead. And I say, but my parents are suffering. Cuz my sister had run away and vanished and broke my family and in a long, bad way. And I, if I go, my parents are gonna suffer the loss of a second child. And my mom already was in a serious way as a result. And so I was swept across heaven to the edge of the universe where the universe and the heaven intersect. And I was still sort of above looking down and I could see earth like a hologram. And I could see every single human being all at once, all doing their thing in a, a particular time at that moment when I was on the mountain, I could see everybody, every single, every single soul and every single soul was illuminated by the light of the divine inside them.

Peter Panagore (00:19:53):
And they could see it. Not because everyone was under a veil of forgetfulness of blindness and they were, and there were wars going on and people making love and babies crying and everything inhuman everything's going on. And, and, and I can see the veil and the voice says to me in this infinity voice that has no sound but much larger than when it was forgiving me. It says to me in the way that I love you now with this, this amenity of love, that is 10 universes times a trillion. So infinite, I, I have always loved you. My love it was is, and always will be. And because of my love, no one is lost. No one is lost and all is well, all has been well and all will be well. And now, you know, that timelessness is reality. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and time is illusion and your parents who I could see their faces and I could see the length of their life without me and their suffering.

Peter Panagore (00:20:56):
Mm. And I could see the length of their life with me and less suffering. And I was short, I was shown these things. And then I, then I asked whether I had to stay and the voice said, I want you to stay. It's your time essentially come home. My beloved. I could see that I was the beloved of God. I was the most important soul ever made. And simultaneously I could see that every single human being was just the same as me. Yeah. Every single one, the most beloved. And I know that, that sounds paradoxical.

Dr. Reese (00:21:39):
Not to me. I mean, we're, we're all made of the same stuff

Peter Panagore (00:21:42):
We are totally made of the same stuff.

Dr. Reese (00:21:45):
Dying is essentially a part becoming, going back to the hole.

Peter Panagore (00:21:50):
Yes, it is. Yeah. It is. And

Dr. Reese (00:21:53):
Like a wave, like a wa like a wave going back into the ocean <laugh>

Peter Panagore (00:21:57):
Yep. Folding back in. Yep. I was just down at there's a Gale going on where I live and the waves are huge. I was just witnessing that. Yeah. And, um,

Dr. Reese (00:22:08):
I know

Peter Panagore (00:22:09):
Psychically, I, that happens.

Dr. Reese (00:22:12):

Peter Panagore (00:22:12):
Does. It does. And, and, and that's a beautiful thing when it does.

Dr. Reese (00:22:16):
Well, go ahead. You're you're in the nothingness. You're having the conversation and, and our, I, I believe a, a mutual buddy of ours, John Scott,

Peter Panagore (00:22:26):
John Scott

Dr. Reese (00:22:27):
Had his near death experience. And he also had a conversation with this source.

Peter Panagore (00:22:35):
He did source. Yeah. Good word. I say, can I, if I go back to life, can I come back here to heaven? And you and source says, yes, but it's not, I don't want you to go back. And I say, but I haven't gone through the door yet. This portal and the VO and voice says no. And I say, do I have to voices? No, you don't have to. I say, I choose to live my life. And the voice says, you won't live. Your life sends me back. And on the way back, I'm suddenly swept out. There's a, I see in front of me, uh, a, a million different sort of like tubes openings, and they're all stacked, like a big cable. And I get to choose which tube to enter. And there's all these different entry points back into my life. And there's, uh, like a concentration in the middle of the pure beam of the white light.

Peter Panagore (00:23:39):
And I don't go there. I go off to the side and I think to myself as I, as I, cuz I only have a split second to make this choice. Mm. And so in, in timelessness, okay. So this is paradox, right? I'm I, you know, so I, I make this choice. I go off to the side of the purity of the light, but I'm close, I'm close to the light. And I end up back in my body. I get crushed down. I feel myself getting reduced in size. Like before I get to my body, I'm being crushed, like smooshed, like, like a compactor in a, at a, at an auto parts. Mm. You know, in a junkyard. And, and it felt like I was being screwed back into my heart. Um, like on a big screw, like a right. And, and it would hurt me.

Peter Panagore (00:24:23):
I felt like, and each twist as I into my body, again, I was in suffering. And so my first experience of the world is, was the tote. The, my whole existence, everything hurt. I didn't even know what my hands were. My feet were. I couldn't comprehend those things. All I knew was, was pain. And so I'm in pain and, and, and I'm in swimming. I'm in, I'm a consciousness filled with pain. And I forget immediately the loss of the, the healing, the healing is gone. The healing, the healing is gone. I I'm now back in the world and I sort of float to consciousness. I sort of, my brain sort of comes back online again. And I start to, you know, my hands hurt. I don't know with their hands. I don't know the word for them, but these things hurt. And my, my feet, they hurt.

Peter Panagore (00:25:12):
My body hurts. And, and my whole, my whole, the whole thing is shaken. And, and as I kind of swim up to consciousness and I open my eyes, I hear sound, I hear sound that I don't comprehend his language. And I, and I sort of look up and I see this, this thing, I, which is a human being, my climbing partner, but I don't know it's a human being. I can't name it as a human being. I, I, I don't know what it is and it's, and I, it, it's got a hold of this body that I'm in and it's shaking and it's screaming. And my ears come back on and my eyes come back on. I start to see him as a person. And I hear screaming you're you were dead. You were dead. If you die, I'm gonna die. And, and he helps me back up and I I'm now, like what just happened?

Peter Panagore (00:26:03):
Wow. And where am I? And what is this thing that I'm in? I, I, I, I I'm, I'm utterly bath, like a, like a baby, almost like a, like a baby, a only, I'm 150 feet up opinion to a mountain. And so I'm still in this desperate situation and it's still hours before Dawn and it's freezing out. And we're, we have, we have one repel left to get down to our tent. And, um, for hours, for hours, and this position all night long, there was a whole series of terrible things that happened. This was the, this was the last terrible thing of a very terrible night that the rope had become jammed on my first pole. When we reached this rappel and had been stuck for hours, which is why we died. I died there and, and the rope came free on the first pull and we descended.

Peter Panagore (00:26:51):
And, uh, given my, you know, my ski patrol training, we, I had my brain came back on pretty good. I was like, okay, we can't, we can't just get in the car, Tim. Tim was like, we should get in the car and fire it up. Cuz we're on the Saskatchewan river. The Saskatchewan river runs down through ban provincial park and Western Canada. And on the ice fields Parkway and, and next to the river is the parking lot. And across the street is this climb. So our tent inside the car. So my brain came back online enough to know that we shouldn't just jump in the car and fire up the heater we had to, we warmed ourselves up for a couple of hours. And then we, we kind of brought our temperature up slowly. And then we got in the car and then, and then I began to live out this life. That was not my own anymore. When God said to me, you won't live your life. I had no idea what deal, the deal I was making.

Dr. Reese (00:27:43):
Yeah. There's no way life can be the same after that.

Peter Panagore (00:27:47):

Dr. Reese (00:27:48):
How did death teach you that? It was just the beginning.

Peter Panagore (00:27:53):
Well, from that moment on, for the next 20 years, all I wanted to do was die every day. Wow. Every day I had basically two prayers, the prayer of my meditation and my yoga in order to drive my consciousness deeper into myself and God, it's a good day to dial and go home today. And so the timeline that I had been living, it ended, I, I came back and my whole life changed direction. My parents, I saw what my parents would've been living without me. And that's what was going to happen. And I, I chose to come back as if God didn't know, you know, omnipotence still gave me choice. I still had agency. It's this complex question of, did I have agency? Did I really choose? Well, I did. So the timeline changed and uh, and my life changed. I, I was an alien and a and a, I was a stranger in a strange land to use the, the biblical, uh, motif.

Dr. Reese (00:29:01):
My understanding is that you wanted to learn more. So you enrolled in Yale divinity school. Right?

Peter Panagore (00:29:07):
I was gonna be an architect. I got into Georgia tech and architecture architecture for graduate school. And I, and I kind of also applied to divinity school. And I, and I did the architecture thing cuz that was the goal of my family, my whole life. But I'm like, I gotta figure this thing out. I came back. So I came back with this, this, I came back with a mission and now I'm finally feel like I'm able to talk about it. I came back, uh, to be a messenger for the message. I'm not the only one, but I am definitely one of 'em this roaring roaring ocean of just message. Speak my message. You are the, and it's no language. And so there's no language with this. I, I don't know how to say it. I'm like

Dr. Reese (00:29:51):

Peter Panagore (00:29:52):
Mouth open, right? No sound yeah.

Dr. Reese (00:29:56):
Language. Can't explain this stuff. Anyway.

Peter Panagore (00:29:58):
So I went to divinity school to study, um, mysticism across the university and I ended up, uh, doing an independent study under the Dean of admissions for three years, sort of on the down low. Nobody knew about it.

Dr. Reese (00:30:11):
First of all, I'm from Connecticut. So Yale is 45 minutes from where I'm talking to you right now. I didn't even know there was a divinity school.

Peter Panagore (00:30:20):
Oh it's oh, I say it's the first part of Yale.

Dr. Reese (00:30:25):
<laugh> yeah. And so I just learned about this when I was looking up information on you and I'm like, wow. I, I might have went there 10 years ago if I had known about this, but

Peter Panagore (00:30:37):

Dr. Reese (00:30:38):
I didn't know. Even when I went on their website and I looked through the curriculum a little

Peter Panagore (00:30:43):
Bit, they don't have mysticism, do they?

Dr. Reese (00:30:45):
No, that's what I was just gonna say.

Peter Panagore (00:30:48):
They do not. So, so I, I got into, I got into Yale and I got into Princeton and I was gonna choose Princeton because Princeton actually has a, a dedicated professor of mysticism Yale at the time had Henry Nowan and Henry Nowan is a living mystic or was, and he was a Catholic priest. Um, and, and so I'm like, I'm gonna go study with Henry Nowan. And so I get to campus the very first freaking day and I go looking for his office and it turned out that during the summer he went to Harvard. And so now I'm like, what do I do? So I went to the Dean and I said, you know, I know that the school doesn't teach this. Uh, but this is my interest. I didn't tell her why I was doing this. Um, can you work with me? And so she and her name is Joan Forsburg and she she's still alive.

Peter Panagore (00:31:39):
She's like 90 something sharp as a sharp, as a as attack. Um, and I said, can you help me? And she said, I'll, if you look across the university and find classes, and there were professors who, who were teaching mysticism, this guy named Louis Dupre is one of them. I began to construct plus I'm doing all the theology and all the other classes too. So, so basically each semester that I was there, she let me do an independent study or I would get a professor. Uh, she, she found money to hire a professor for me and we created a class. Other, other students came to it, but it was really my thing. I, I, I found the professor, I, I helped her set this whole thing up. And so, um, then I wrote, uh, basically a dissert you don't have to write a dissertation at divinity school to get your master's, but I, I spent an entire semester writing a dissertation, um, on mysticism.

Peter Panagore (00:32:33):
That was my, that was what this last class I, uh, I took was, uh, so the last class I took with was with her, um, under the tutelage of this, this other, uh, professor. And so I studied it on my own. And the reason why I did it is because I needed a language to think about it. And so I figured if I studied the history of Western classical mysticism, I would be able to construct a way to think about what had happened to me. And I'd be able to pick up tools to find out how to find my way back. And, and it wasn't just the divinity degree. Uh, I, uh, I was also reading outside of Christianity.

Dr. Reese (00:33:13):
I was just gonna say that, uh, you could go find an Indian guru as well and go that

Peter Panagore (00:33:19):
Route. Well, I, I almost did the first semester I came back to, uh, cuz I was a, an exchange student in Montana. When I came back to UMass Amherst where I was an undergraduate in the English department, I took a class in, but it was comparative cl the comparative mysticism east and west mm-hmm. And it was in the comparative literature department, not, not my department. And in that class I read across mysticism, east and west. And I went to the professor, we were go, we, we, he took us on a Zen SAHE mm-hmm at the local trap monastery, which happens to be the place where they developed centering prayer, which was a compilation of, of, of their contemplative life, Zen and, uh, and TM Thomas's Keating, Thomas Keating, basil Pennington, uh, the Fae Boyd who became my spiritual director. Yeah. Um, over the years. So, so he takes us on this retreat, but, but I go to, I go to him in, in office hours and I say, professor, I've got, this friend had this experience.

Peter Panagore (00:34:24):
And I, he probably knew I was talking about me and lying, but he didn't let on. And I've got this friend who, um, and had this experience and wants to pursue mysticism. What, what should he do, professor? Uh, and the professor who happened to be a Catholic deacon says, uh, is your friend Christian? Uh, I say, my friend was Christian before this happened. Um, and now has no religion. Um, but he said, but the context of their culture is Christian raised in the United States in Massachusetts maybe. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. So, so we established that this person has a, is in a Christian context and a Christian culture. And he says, so here's the thing you could, you could go to India and study with a guru. Um, and I had been reading proma Yonda right. So, so that was in, in the Buddha and Plato and all these other books.

Peter Panagore (00:35:16):
Sure. And so he said inside of all, the major religions are strains of mysticism. Yeah. And if it's a, and if it's a mythology and, uh, that you're looking for, if it's a mythology that you're looking for mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if your friend has a, uh, uh, needs to study mysticism and that person's looking for a mythology and framework, stay in the context of your culture, stay in the context of the culture, because you're not gonna have to learn Sanskrit. Right. You're not gonna have to learn the culture that surrounds this. Right. And all the mythology that they grow up in, in India. I mean, they have cartoons about C I mean, I didn't see cartoons about Christian going up. They're they're pretty great.

Dr. Reese (00:35:55):
They're excellent.

Peter Panagore (00:35:56):

Dr. Reese (00:35:57):
Excellent. They're excellent cartoons. Yes. In

Peter Panagore (00:35:59):
The movies too, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I'd be doing, he said your friend to be doing a lot of catching up, whether it's Japan or China or India, if your friend wants it, you can, your friend can find it right within Christianity. Right. And so that's why I chose that route.

Dr. Reese (00:36:16):
Right, right. Mysticism, you don't have to be a monk. You don't have to be a rabbi. Like it's just, you could do it in your room if you want <laugh>

Peter Panagore (00:36:25):
And the, and the temple of your heart

Dr. Reese (00:36:27):
And the temple of your heart. So when did you become irreverent?

Peter Panagore (00:36:31):
So at the, at the end of this three year thing at divinity school divinity school, masters is a three year program. And so at the end, at the end of the second year, my Dean says to me, so what are you gonna do with your, with your studies? I said, well, I'm gonna get in, I'm gonna go get my doctorate. I'm gonna get my doctorate. I'm gonna study, missed east and west. I've got this, I've got this idea to study the intersection in Indonesia where Christianity, Islam and, uh, Confucianism. And Dows, em, all kind of mixed up in one place. So this idea that I would go down there and do my dissertation, do my thesis down there. And, but, but maybe at Yale or, or, or at Harvard and, uh, or Princeton, one of those places. And, um, she said, you know, uh, I've been watching you all these years.

Peter Panagore (00:37:15):
I think you'd make a great pastor. Mm I'm. Like a, a pastor. She says, yeah. I just think you oughta give it a try. So I, I say, okay. Um, I take the politic class, which is like the politics of, of my, of the, my denomination, which is not, I'm not really a denominational person, but the denomination I eventually D uh, entered. And at the end of that third year, all the young seminarians were, uh, not all of us. There were three of us. I took a lot of preaching classes. I took extra preaching classes. So I was, I got pretty good at it pretty quick. And so I was offered, there's like three or four of us were offered to preach some Sunday in front of all the, the local clergy people. And I did, and I got recruited and I got recruited to this church.

Peter Panagore (00:38:02):
And, and then I got ordained and I made a deal with God. I'd stayed out three years. And at the end of three years, if this didn't work out, I was out of there back to graduate school, doctorate. I'm at, I'm at that's what I'm after. And so it started out as an, as like a, a 12 month position. And then they voted me to three years. So it's like, suddenly I'm, I'm in the deal. I get three year contract, not extendable. And at the end of that, I was done. I was out of the church, but we got pregnant. And I, my wife's grant had ended. She was working at Yale medical school, under a grant. And, you know, in those days, if you're pregnant, you can't get a job. And so when the, when the grant ended, she couldn't get into another gig and I had to get a job. The only thing I could, I, the only thing I could do, the baby's coming and there's no stopping it. I gotta, I gotta stay in the church. So that's what I did.

Dr. Reese (00:38:51):
This is a topic that comes up a lot on this podcast. You are in the Christian tradition, you're a Reverend yet you have a vast understanding of mysticism. And so this is very uncommon for Christian, for the Christian tradition. I

Peter Panagore (00:39:11):

Dr. Reese (00:39:12):
I mean, I remember when I released my first book, I had a, and it's a book on health, but there was a, a, a chapter because I met a mystic in 2012 and he changed my life. And so I had, you know, a little bit and piece of that in my book. And I remember a Christian lady telling me, I can't read your book. Yeah. Cause the word mystic is in it.

Peter Panagore (00:39:38):

Dr. Reese (00:39:38):
And I'm like, oh, okay.

Peter Panagore (00:39:40):
<laugh> cause the revelation ended.

Dr. Reese (00:39:42):
Boom. You, you don't know what a mystic is clearly. Oh,

Peter Panagore (00:39:45):
Clearly not.

Dr. Reese (00:39:46):
So how do you intersect these two avenues that don't really necessarily go together traditionally?

Peter Panagore (00:39:54):
Well, I would argue historically that they do go together traditionally. That's why there's a huge amount of literature all through the, the flowering during the middle ages, why there were mystics all over Western Europe, Z R

Dr. Reese (00:40:07):
To Z

Peter Panagore (00:40:08):
And other books as well. There was a flowering that was going on. And so, but in, but once, once the, uh, the intellectual, the, the age of enlightenment came and science became dominant and I'm a science head. Okay. Just to make sure your, your listeners know this, I read science articles every day, three or four of them. I'm totally up on. I'm totally up on what's going on. I love science. When science came online, uh, it developed in the west two forms of Protestantism. Basically you get your evangelicals that reject science altogether. Yeah. And then you get your mainline Protestants that, um, utilize the tool sets of scientific thinking and instituted them into the church in the critical thinking and historical, uh, examination it's called, uh, hermeneutics and exegesis. So they use, uh, historical critical context of the wider culture to do the, the forensic work on the scriptures.

Peter Panagore (00:41:10):
So they're totally using scientific thinking, but they both groups cast out God, the experience of God, the direct experience of God. And so when I got ordained, I kept my mouth shut. I kept this a secret for 20 years. I kept my mouth shut through the entire first ministry as the associate, the second ministry on this island off the coast of Maine. I kept it a secret the whole time, because who was gonna listen to me, but what, but, but here's the, here's the great blessing of it. Okay. So I knew that Wordsworth and Blake and, uh, Wordsworth and Blake and Emerson, and tho all went to divinity school and, and, and that they, they practiced writing. So as a minister, I got to practice my writing every week I got to do research so I could research anything I wanted to. So I continued my mystical studies while I'm working.

Peter Panagore (00:42:03):
And, uh, and I could meditate and do yoga every day, cuz no, one's gonna say, what, what are you doing? Well, I'm praying. And so I got to continue my entire inner life in the public view and nobody knew, right. I only, I only seek the oneness of being everything I do is all about the interconnectedness and, and the deeper I go into the oneness of being the deeper I connect to, to the, to the unity that I know exists and is real. Then the, the more my life around me becomes magical. Like it it's. So it's like this big bubble of support. I get this big bubble of support around me all the time. Yeah. That I was going to tell them the truth finally. And I, and tell them that I'm not a believer. I have no belief. I am not a Christian. I am not, I have no faith at all. I have zero doubt. Say it, I am a hundred percent know that I'm known by the knower and God had no religion. Yes. And so you

Dr. Reese (00:43:03):
Were playing, you were playing a role. I play the role of doctor.

Peter Panagore (00:43:08):
You gotta do something when you're on stage.

Dr. Reese (00:43:10):
That's right. That's right. So how could you be Christian? You're you're coming face to face with source. You're realizing that human beings have created these political systems. We call religion that are, you know, but the truth is the truth. Whether you're Hindu Christian or yep. Buddhist or atheist.

Peter Panagore (00:43:34):
Yep. Even atheists find out

Dr. Reese (00:43:36):
<laugh> oh yeah. Big time

Peter Panagore (00:43:38):
And atheists who have near death experiences, they don't come back as atheists.

Dr. Reese (00:43:42):
No, John Scott is one

Peter Panagore (00:43:44):
Of them, John. Scott's one of them.

Dr. Reese (00:43:45):
He was on this podcast episode 48. And uh, yeah. He's one of them, many atheists. In fact, atheists might have an even more open mind to it.

Peter Panagore (00:43:54):
Oh. Some of my best friends are atheists because they're the most spiritual people I know. Even though they deny it.

Dr. Reese (00:44:00):
Yes, yes.

Peter Panagore (00:44:01):
They say, Peter, you just have the God madness. <laugh> I'm like, yeah, you, I do. <laugh>

Dr. Reese (00:44:08):
So piggy, bagging off this. Here's a big question for you. You ready?

Peter Panagore (00:44:12):
Yeah. I'm ready.

Dr. Reese (00:44:13):
Is yes. Jesus. The Christ. Is he the son of God or is he a great mystic?

Peter Panagore (00:44:19):
I'm not sure whether he has to be either or I, I think that they deified him is Jesus. God, if the answer is yes, Jesus is God is God eternal. Yes. God is eternal. Then how did Jesus die on cross?

Dr. Reese (00:44:32):

Peter Panagore (00:44:33):
And so, you know, there's this PA he, when he is outside the tomb of Lazarus, he, he prays out loud and says, look, I'm praying out loud for them to hear me because I pray to, I pray to you in silence usually. Um, and I, and I want them to know that I only do what I see you doing. And on the cross he says, uh, Lama, Lama, why have you abandoned me?

Dr. Reese (00:44:56):

Peter Panagore (00:44:57):
How can God abandon God's self? And so they DEI Jesus and they totally missed the message. I have no trouble with resurrection because I think there's physics. We don't understand. I know there's physics. We don't understand. Yeah. I know. That's true. And so did he rise from the dead? Yeah. Did I rise from the dead? Yeah. Yeah. The 10 million of us rise from the dead in the United States and around the world. Hundreds of millions. Yep. Yeah. Yep. And, and what do we come back with? We come back with a message of love. What was Jesus teaching

Dr. Reese (00:45:31):

Peter Panagore (00:45:32):
Love. And so, and there's the scene when he is up on the mountaintop and he is like, it's called the transfiguration where he becomes an illuminated being of light. Yes. And two other illuminated beings of light show up. Yeah. I've been in presence of illumination. Yes. Um, and so I could, could, Jesus, let's expand this even bigger and say the, every single Christian Church that has developed politically down through the centuries and still exist, believe that they have a lock on the truth and that the Coptics think the Catholics and the Orthodox are all tics and the, and the Protestants too. And it works across all of these groups. So let's, let's think about the, that huge cataclysm that killed all the dinosaurs and, and allow the mammals to develop. Now, what if that on another star system MIS and the dinosaurs become sentient beings and they're like reptilian, right. And, and they've got culture and art and make babies and war and all the stuff we do, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, can Jesus come to them?

Dr. Reese (00:46:35):

Peter Panagore (00:46:35):
They don't even have the same DNA. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so they can't. So is it only, is it only your tiny little group on this forage of this galaxy? Yeah. On the edge of the super galaxy in all the 13 billion, you know, light years, you're saying you're the special group,

Dr. Reese (00:46:49):
Right. Well, you, you know, it's the Roman empire, the Roman empire hijacked the story and they disseminated it amongst the people 300 years later. And that's Christianity.

Peter Panagore (00:47:02):
Yeah. Well, there's nothing like gaining power through political and religious alignment.

Dr. Reese (00:47:06):
If one understands mysticism and what a mystic is, then it's much easier to understand something like the sermon on the mouth. Oh yeah. Or Jesus teaching just in general and definitely understand someone like Goma, the Buddha.

Peter Panagore (00:47:26):

Dr. Reese (00:47:27):
Or bohi Gar LASU Lazu. I said bohi Darma Z

Peter Panagore (00:47:32):

Dr. Reese (00:47:32):
DMA, or Zen master. Yes,

Peter Panagore (00:47:34):
That's right. I know who, I know who.

Dr. Reese (00:47:36):
Yeah. And so once, you know, a mystic understands a mystic

Peter Panagore (00:47:43):
Takes one to no one. Right.

Dr. Reese (00:47:45):

Peter Panagore (00:47:46):
And you don't need a near death experience to be a mystic. No, that is what the history shows.

Dr. Reese (00:47:50):
Not at all. Just some firsthand experience.

Peter Panagore (00:47:53):
It's all about experience

Dr. Reese (00:47:55):
<laugh> and to the mysterious

Peter Panagore (00:47:57):
And to the mysterious, the capital M a building on what you just said. I started this thing on my YouTube channel called not church. And basically it's a mystics examination of the sayings of Jesus, because he cuz what they say he said is not at all what he meant. He's a code switcher. Yeah. He speaks two languages at the same time. Yeah. And, and it's easy to hear code switching when you're, you know, up on the, uh, the Quebec border and they're speaking English and French at the same sentence. Mm. Um, but it's hard tos to hear that when he's only speaking Aramaic, but he's also weaving in metaphor. So he's always code switching between physical world and metaphorical world.

Dr. Reese (00:48:35):
I like to tell people that Jesus was more of a poet.

Peter Panagore (00:48:41):
Oh yeah.

Dr. Reese (00:48:42):
And Buddha was more of a scientist.

Peter Panagore (00:48:44):

Dr. Reese (00:48:45):
Budha broke it down. Like a professor.

Peter Panagore (00:48:48):

Dr. Reese (00:48:48):
For 42 years. I mean, there weren't there weren't there weren't whiteboards back then. <laugh> you see the whiteboard behind

Peter Panagore (00:48:56):
Me? I see it back there.

Dr. Reese (00:48:58):
But if someone like Sadar Goma had a whiteboard.

Peter Panagore (00:49:02):

Dr. Reese (00:49:03):
Man, that would've been pretty.

Peter Panagore (00:49:05):
It would've been, it would've been like all outlined

Dr. Reese (00:49:07):
<laugh> everything that Einstein and Tesla. I mean, he, he was just incredible in that way. And then someone like Lazu was just so simple.

Peter Panagore (00:49:18):

Dr. Reese (00:49:18):
Just earthly. But Christianity seems to be dissolving it's dissolving right now because people are having small awakenings of religion being, you know, nonsense in a certain way. And

Peter Panagore (00:49:38):
All the young people who have L LT, LGBTQ friends.

Dr. Reese (00:49:42):

Peter Panagore (00:49:43):
And, or they are themselves. Right. They're all flocking out. They're like, no. Right. My friend who is so lovely and kind, and beautiful is going to help cuz they're genetics, predisposed them right. To being a, a lesbian. I don't

Dr. Reese (00:50:01):
Think so. Right. Yeah. I have a buddy who grew up evangelical. I mean the whole nine yards, the onstage, holy roller faint the whole, the whole nine yards. He grew up in that mm-hmm <affirmative> and um, you know, as soon as he was old enough, he out

Peter Panagore (00:50:18):

Dr. Reese (00:50:18):
Out out. I, I wish that more Western folk understood Eastern mysticism, Hinduism and Buddhism and journalism. Uh, I'm not gonna say that they're, you know, a hundred percent, but they're just so much more on par.

Peter Panagore (00:50:37):
Well, they have a, a more highly developed symbolic system I think, than we do. Um, and, and it's easier to pick apart the, um, the stories that they tell because they, because they understand that it's all it's so it's so delineated. It's so delineated, I guess it's more like Buddha. It's like every, you know, every God has this certain aspects of the holy oneness of being, and to kind of personify that in this person, you know, GNE and Sheva and all these things. And it just makes it easier to grasp, I think.

Dr. Reese (00:51:12):
Yeah, absolutely. Somewhere in your story, you die again.

Peter Panagore (00:51:16):
I do. I, I died in 2015 of a heart attack, a genetic thing in my family. And um, it killed, my grandfather, killed my sister, uh, what it killed. My dad, uh, did kill me. And so I was, I was fit and, but it has nothing to do with fitness and how and diet, so nothing you could do about it

Dr. Reese (00:51:37):
Really. So where were you when the heart attack hit?

Peter Panagore (00:51:39):
I go to yoga class. I grabbed my mat and I dash the class and I get to class late in its summertime and the room is filled, but the teacher's a friend of mine and she says, all right, Peter, you just set up in the doorway. So I'm actually in the door jam, like the door's open cuz it's summer. And, and, and it's a hot, it's hot outside and she likes a hot yoga. And so, um, first couple of moves OTEN, I'm like, God, I'm really hot, but I hadn't been there long enough to get sweaty. Like, why am I so sweaty? And so I laid down on my mat and I'm like, I'm just gonna take a break here for a minute. And I just started sweating profusely. Like, why am I sweating profusely? Why is my heart hurt? My heart's hurting. What's going on here?

Peter Panagore (00:52:19):
I'm like, oh, I'm having a heart attack. I've been on an, I was national ski patrol. And I worked on an ambulance in my life. I'm like, oh, I'm having a heart attack. Maybe it's a minor one. I'll just go outside and lie down. So I go outside and I lie down. I sit down in the chair first and I'm like, no, it's not getting better. And I lie down on the grass and I'm lying in the cool grass in the early summer, uh, day. And I think this is getting worse. I've, it's getting worse. I gotta go to the hospital. So I, I go to get up. I can't get up. I'm like, oh, today's my day. All my life. I've been praying for this. And today I get to go home. I'm like, cool. Wow. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I've been telling my wife and my kids.

Peter Panagore (00:53:01):
I'm not afraid of dying. I'm I'm not, that's like I'm inoculated against that. And so I'm just, okay, I'm dying. This is my, my only problem was that all these women is like all women and two guys, they're all gonna walk outside and I'm going to be dead at the doorstep, cuz I'm literally at the doorstep at this place outside and I'm lying there and I'm like, uh, they're gonna find me, but not I can do about it. So I'm just lying in the grass and it's a beautiful, a blue sky and I'm in the shade and, and I, and I'm in a lot of pain. Okay. So I, I begin to meditate. I start, I go into my meditation mm-hmm <affirmative> and I separate myself from my pain. And the next thing I hear is a voice. And she says, Peter, what are you?

Peter Panagore (00:53:41):
Okay? You've been lying out here this whole time. And I was like, no Rome, I'm having a heart attack. She said, what are you kidding me? You're having a heart attack. I mean, look at you. I'm like super fit. And I was like, no, rom, I'm actually not only having a heart attack. I, if I don't get to the ER, now I'm going to die here soon. And she's like, oh, I said, yeah, go, go inside and get my, my friend, um, Michelle summer neighbor who's in, in the, in the space, like go get Michelle and bring her out and I'll get her to take me to the urgent care. Should I call the ambulance? No, don't call the ambulance because it's too far away. So Michelle comes out, we get in the car, we're on the way to the ER. And um, we call, I call ahead.

Peter Panagore (00:54:20):
I'm like, Hey, and it's a small town. I know everybody. I know all the nurses, half the nurses have been my, in my church. I call up and I say, so it's Peter Panag and I'm, I'm having a heart attack and I'm on the way to the urgent care. And so I get to the urgent care center and he's like, before we get you outta the out the car, check you out, I'm having a heart attack. They gimme a, a shot to gimme a trickle through. They don't gimme any morphine. They load me on a gurney again in the ambulance. I on the way to the Portland catheterization lab, which is an hour and a half away, I'm way outside the golden hour of, of survivability. At this point, by the time I leave the urgent care center, I'm outside the window of survivability. And so, um, the doc says to my son who shows up, cuz he is living in town, say goodbye to your dad.

Peter Panagore (00:55:07):
And you know, says goodbye to me, looks me in the eye. Squeezes. My hand comes really close, tells me he loves me. Um, and I, my wife's standing there and I'm like, honey, it's, I'm going, you know, I'm going, you're, you'll be fine. And off I go and on the ride down, I'm no morphine, I'm meditating holding, you know, rising above you rise. You can use meditation to rise above pain. And if you practice this practice, it's not that hard. And so, um, you simply basically, if you wanna know how to do it, you look at your pain with your breath and your mind. That's really what you do. And so I'm doing that and I'm controlling my pain. And, and then I hear the, the EMT, the paramedics say, we're losing him. And I know she's on the radio cuz I can hear her click, click, click in.

Peter Panagore (00:55:55):
And I, and I look up at her and she's surprised that I'm awake cuz I've been totally still this entire time, just meditating. And, and she puts on her game face. I close my eyes because my, my heart started hurting again. Like, like I, I describe it for all my Yogi friends as GNE standing in tree poses on my heart. And so it was an immense amount of pain. And when I went back in my body again, I was not in pain. I go into my meditation to control my pain and there is no pain and I'm outside my body and I'm in the tunnel and the angel of death who I now know is coming toward me. We love you. It's time for you to come home, come home with us. And so I go and I get care. I get lifted and I start getting carried away and it's and it's, but it's taken, uh, time.

Peter Panagore (00:56:38):
I'm like, well, this isn't as fast as last time. Let me think about this for a second. So I kind of turned my eye away from the angel. I sort of separate myself from the angel and I look back inside my life and I see my son saying, I love you dad, goodbye. And I think, oh, he's, he's only in his mid twenties. He's not ready for me to go yet. And then I think about my daughter, who's a little bit older than him. Um, married her high school, sweetheart got graduated college. He went to war, came back, very broken. There's a baby. She just left him. There was a bad situation. I can't, I, and that's just happened. She just finally left him and we've been, you know, dangerous situation. And, and now can I leave my brand new granddaughter and my daughter defenseless without a man

Dr. Reese (00:57:22):
You're needed still,

Peter Panagore (00:57:24):
I'm still needed. And I'm like damnit. And so I turn my eye back and the angel comes rushing back toward me and I just turn away back and I got aren't away back in. I go and, and now I'm, I'm, I, you know, they wheel me into the, the cath lab and uh, I get a stent and um, I meditate till I can't meditate anymore. And um, they give me something, that's not an opiate to kill my pain, like eight hours later. And um, I wake up the next day and I'm still here, but I came back with like, this renewed strength, I guess you could say. Mm. Like that's why I'm all in now. I'm, I'm all in. I came back the second time for my granddaughter. I came back for love both times, but I also came back, like I got a, I got an extra dose of, I got turbo fuel now, or I got a turbo power with Jeff fuel. And so like, I I'm suddenly committed to the path that I resisted from the moment of my first near death experience, which is why I'm sitting here with you, Kevin.

Dr. Reese (00:58:33):
Yeah. Now you're talking about it. You're

Peter Panagore (00:58:36):

Dr. Reese (00:58:36):
You're spreading the message.

Peter Panagore (00:58:38):
I'm out there. Got a movie coming, got a new literary agent. Um, got, uh, a thing going on with Amazon prime on Monday. I'm getting shot for a, an episode of one of a life to afterlife. And, uh, so it's, I'm, I'm not about my own me, because it's not about me. It's only about the light I am. I am not about, I'm not even me. I'm not me, but Peter, I live, I live like an avatar inside of this thing.

Dr. Reese (00:59:08):
Right. Makes sense to me. How many years later did the second death happen

Peter Panagore (00:59:15):
In the first, uh, that was in 2015 and the first one was in 1981. Wow. Quite a bit of space in, um, there were mystical experiences in between those two thi events and mystical experiences that preceded by NDE in the first place. Um, so, uh, I wanna say to your listeners that, uh, near death experience is a, is a type of mystical experience. It's there are other types of mystical experiences and are equally as powerful in individual lives.

Dr. Reese (00:59:46):
What type of experiences did you have alive?

Peter Panagore (00:59:50):
It would, it would vary from time to time on how it happened. Sometimes it was inside of me and I would travel outside. Sometimes it was just inside of me. Sometimes it was out just outside of me. And when I say me, I mean my physical form, I went on this retreat as a guest and on the way home, there was a terrible car wreck that we, that I witnessed. And, and I had my buddy stop the car and cuz I was trained, I took over the scene and there was nothing I could do for this guy. Um, and he was maybe my age, but he was pot belly and you know, a poor dietary life and kind of, and so when I palpated him, I expected to touch soft belly. I did not touch soft belly. I touched stone like rock and I thought, um, and he is unconscious.

Peter Panagore (01:00:40):
So he can't talk to me. So he's, I think he's bleeding outter internally and he's, it's rapid because his belly is filling because what happens is soft tissue becomes hard when you bleed out. And so I think he's bleeding out internally and is not a thing I can do about this guy. And so somebody called an ambulance pre-cellphone days. I don't know how that happened. I was busy. And um, and so while I'm waiting for the ambulance, I yell out call an ambulance. Somebody gets that it's the ambulance called. Yeah. The ambulance is coming. And so I, I, I don't know what to do. And so I kneel next to him and I put one hand over his forehead and one hand over his like number two chakra. And I just begin about this high off him. And I just begin to meditate. And I, and I just meditate with this guy.

Peter Panagore (01:01:25):
And as I do this thing, my, my crown chakra opens, uh, no effort of my own. Okay. Did not make any of this happen. It opens and, and all of the shocks open. And my whole interior is like getting hit with a, with an illuminating bolt of lightning Wabo and myself vanishes. I am, Peter is no longer present when this pulse comes through me. I am only the light. I am only in the light itself. I all sense of self is gone. And it pulses through me repeatedly like a Kaboom, Kaboom, Kaboom, and I, and each space in between. I'm like, I'm back, Peter's back. And I'm, and I'm like, what is this Kaboom? And so, so then the ambulance arrives and, um, and this thing ends and, and I explained to the EMTs what's going on. They put me on traction. So I'm a, I'm holding the guy's head.

Peter Panagore (01:02:21):
And um, well they collar him and we get him strapped to a backboard and we lift him up and we put him on the gurney and off he goes. And so I get back in the car and I'm sitting in the car and I'm telling my buddy about what happened. Cause he's driving, I'm in the passenger side and I'm just telling him the story. And as I'm sitting there, I look up and I see a cross on the top of a church and I'm looking at this cross, uh, it's like on a, on, uh, in a city somewhere. Uh, and, and I watch it leave the steeple and fly towards me. And when it hits me in the, in the solar plexus and number three, it's like, I'm exploded inside with pain. And now I have all of this man's pain, all of the pain that he was, I'm like, like somebody took a, a, a, a knife and was whipping it around inside of me.

Peter Panagore (01:03:05):
And I'm R in the front seat of the car, screaming in agony. Um, it burns, it burns. And my buddy is like, he doesn't know this about me. I had never told him, yeah, that I'm a near death experience. And so he's in like, what is this? And, and then over the next three days, uh, I was in and out of this, it would wash into me like, uh, like a, a fountain of pure bliss. And whenever I closed my eyes, I was out of myself being carried by my angel across the vastness of, uh, the universe until over, over two days until I reached the edge of this place, where the universe was, was the creation space of the universe, where the light of the divine was pouring itself out and reducing itself into the darkness. And inside the darkness is, is how the creation is made in the universe.

Peter Panagore (01:04:04):
So it's like this light is hidden inside of all the darkness. And the darkness rolls out from the infinity of the light of being, and, and the darkness is not evil. The darkness is existence here. Yes. And, and I hang there with the angel and I watch this happen. And, and as I see the light, I say, I think to myself, the light, and as soon as I think to myself, the light boom, I'm out and, and meanwhile, in the real world, um, over three days, everybody's upset at me. I can't go to class. My wife is panicked. My friends are like, what's wrong with Peter? And so they did, they did an intervention. They were gonna bring me to Yale, new Haven hospital and the psych ward. And they gather, and they're like, you know, Peter, we think there's a problem. It's day three.

Peter Panagore (01:04:58):
We think there's a problem. And, but, but I, but previous to that, I had finally gone to a class, um, because I felt, because this thing happened because I got popped out, like popped out and I'm sitting in class. And as I sit in class, I feel my, my ego sense of self shatters, like, like the puzzle of my, of my fault self breaks into 5,000 pieces. And I'm in the middle of class and, and I'm now dissembled, I have no self left. And then the self reassembles. And as after the self reaff assembles, this professor, his name was David. Kelsey was a new, a new Testament, theology class, systematic theology. He looks at me and I must, I don't know what look was on my face, but he looks at me and he calls on me and he says, Panta gore. And he asks this question like, uh, can you repeat the question, professor? Uh, and he repeats the question and I happen to know the answer. So give him the answer. And the class moves on. I go home and there's this intervention waiting for me.

Dr. Reese (01:05:57):
Something you probably didn't wanna experience from friends and family.

Peter Panagore (01:06:02):
No. And I, what the deal was. I said, look, I I'm back now. I know, I know. I said I was my buddy, Brian and my wife. And I said, Brian, I gotta tell you, my wife now knows the story. I gotta tell you what's going on here. I gotta, I gotta tell you, I died that I had, this was all a secret. My wife knew nobody else did. No. Nobody knew.

Dr. Reese (01:06:24):
So you had to tell him about 1981.

Peter Panagore (01:06:26):
I did. And I said, look, if tomorrow I'm crazy. Take me to the, take me to Yale, new Haven, psych ward. If I'm not, then it's over. I know it's a mystical experience.

Dr. Reese (01:06:36):
This goes back to what we were saying about east and west too.

Peter Panagore (01:06:40):

Dr. Reese (01:06:40):
Yeah. The chances of, you know, your friends and family being freaked out. If, if you were Indian or Japanese are much slimmer than being an

Peter Panagore (01:06:50):
American. Yep. And so, which is why I kept it as secret because who wants to be tagged to K or a nut who wants to end up, I, I came this close a centimeter from being committed and I knew that it was a mystical experience. Cause I was in the presence of God. Right. You know? And so I, but I also knew how it looked on the outside. And so the, this line between mysticism and, and, and insanity, it's a pretty thin line. People go, people that, you know, in the, um, I wanna say the, this passion of style of yoga, if you are not prepared, if you have any sort of psychological issues and you go on one of these retreats for a week, they don't let you in, well, you can't get in because you can have what they call the rising and the falling away you can, you come to lean, can pop open and destroy your ego and you're not prepared. Um, and you gotta be prepared.

Dr. Reese (01:07:44):
Yeah. Dark Knight of the soul also could, could happen if you haven't experience. And then you come back to regular life. And that sounds like, you know, similar to what you had in 81. Yeah. It's like what? I wanna go back, man.

Peter Panagore (01:08:00):
<laugh> I wanna go back. I wanna go back. I wanna go back. Imagine if you're telling your wife, um, all the time I want to die. I can't wait to go back. Yeah. Heaven's better than here. I, my beloved is God, I am my beloved and my beloved is mine. Yeah. Um, you know, it's like, how do you say that to people? My kids, when I finally came out of the closet with this and to the church, you know, I, you know, the whole community knew in a week, everybody's like Peter died and then six people in town came up to me and they say, I died too. Mm. So now I know that there's a little community around me. Mm. And everybody's keeping it a secret that was all told, you know, in whispers, I died too. Don't tell anybody. Um, and so, but then my poor kids, you know, like dad, dad wants to leave us. Mm. Not really. It's not, not you. I wanna leave it's that I wanna be in this incredible place of bliss again. Sure. That you're going to too,

Dr. Reese (01:09:05):
It's like eating a delicious pineapple for the first time. And then somebody says you can't have anymore. And they're like, but why? I mean, it's delicious. I want more

Peter Panagore (01:09:15):
<laugh> right. And they say what's pineapple.

Dr. Reese (01:09:18):
Right. <laugh> yeah. And you're trying to describe it. It's just this yellow thing. It's got a crown on.

Peter Panagore (01:09:23):
I don't know. Right. Gotta be careful with it. You

Dr. Reese (01:09:29):
Gotta cut it like this,

Peter Panagore (01:09:31):

Dr. Reese (01:09:32):
Yeah. I have experienced a few ator and, uh, similar, you know, not in your death experience, but you know, you get a taste of that, you know, whether it's lights or just a feeling or just that feeling that you absolutely know that you are not the body. Yeah. You are not the thoughts.

Peter Panagore (01:09:54):

Dr. Reese (01:09:55):
And it's like, whoa, what's that. But then you get jolted back in the ego based reality. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and ego based reality is torture. If you know that something else exists

Peter Panagore (01:10:09):
And it doesn't want to die. So it doesn't give you access.

Dr. Reese (01:10:12):
The ego tries to stay alive. It's just, yep. It's just clinging. You know, it could Whis you off and do a fantasy for 10 minutes and then you come back and you're like, I was just in a fantasy for 10 minutes, but most people don't even realize they were in a fantasy for 10 minutes.

Peter Panagore (01:10:29):

Dr. Reese (01:10:29):
They're living in the illusionary dream.

Peter Panagore (01:10:34):
Yep. Meditation's a great thing. You wanna break that cycle? That's the key.

Dr. Reese (01:10:39):
Yeah. This has been a great conversation, Reverend

Peter Panagore (01:10:42):
<laugh> rare. Rarely do I get called that I, I made it a rule in my life that everybody called me Peter. And now that I'm doing this job that I'm getting advised that you should go by Reverend, it gives you should go by Reverend like, oh, okay.

Dr. Reese (01:10:58):
<laugh> well, you know, just quick story about me. I, when I signed up to get my doctorate, I was a very different person than I was when I graduated. I bet. Cause all these things happened to me. And once I finally got it, I didn't wanna even call myself doctor.

Peter Panagore (01:11:15):

Dr. Reese (01:11:16):
Why? Because I'm like, I'm like, it's stupid. I'm just Kevin. I'm not even Kevin. Not even Kevin, never my doctor

Peter Panagore (01:11:23):
Be a doctor Kevin.

Dr. Reese (01:11:24):
Right. So there was this incident where I ran in, I was at an event and I ran into the mayor of my city and you know, she's going around shaking hands, kissing babies. Right. And so I introduced, hi, Kevin Reese, nice to meet you. And my buddy is like, why the heck? Didn't you introduce yourself as Dr. Reese?

Peter Panagore (01:11:47):

Dr. Reese (01:11:48):
He, and I'm like, I don't know. Cause don't feel uncomfortable. You know? He's like, no, no, you need to be Dr. Reese. That's what's best for business. That's that's right. He's like, you call a restaurant right now and you go get, you get the good seat you do that

Peter Panagore (01:12:02):
You call doctor on them. <laugh>

Dr. Reese (01:12:04):
Right. And so I, I, you know, I understood. And then I thought about, oh, one of my favorite people on my journey, which is Ron dos.

Peter Panagore (01:12:14):

Dr. Reese (01:12:14):
Yeah. And I'm like, all right, well he was Richard Alpert. And then he got initiated as do. And he ran with dos for the rest of his life.

Peter Panagore (01:12:23):

Dr. Reese (01:12:24):
And so I said, all right, well, Dr. Reese is gonna be my dos.

Peter Panagore (01:12:27):
Oh, that's a good idea. I like that.

Dr. Reese (01:12:31):
So I came up with a logo and I started branding myself as Dr. Reese. And then eventually when I said I'm gonna do a podcast. I said, well, it rhymes with peace.

Peter Panagore (01:12:42):

Dr. Reese (01:12:42):
So inner peace with Dr. Reese.

Peter Panagore (01:12:44):
I thought that was a literative and wonderful <laugh>.

Dr. Reese (01:12:48):
So I just, I look at it as a complete gimmick, a complete role. It's just a role. Yeah. So yes, Reverend will help you if you go Reverend Peter,

Peter Panagore (01:13:03):
That's what I, that's where I'm headed

Dr. Reese (01:13:06):
And we just have to get over it because we know that it means nothing, but

Peter Panagore (01:13:10):
Right. Well, that's why I was not using it cuz it means nothing. But, but there is the PR there is PR and I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm enough in the world to, to know how things work. I, I adapt. I, I, I dress the part.

Dr. Reese (01:13:24):
Yeah, exactly. We're here to play the role. You said it earlier, we're on the stage.

Peter Panagore (01:13:29):

Dr. Reese (01:13:30):
And just play your role. And I think, you know, Reverend will help you. So

Peter Panagore (01:13:34):
Thank you doctor. And thanks for having me on your show, doc. <laugh> appreciate it, uh, very much because, because you're playing your role and I'm playing my role. That's right. And when we intersect, we strengthen the whole

Dr. Reese (01:13:46):
And just dance.

Peter Panagore (01:13:47):

Dr. Reese (01:13:48):
What a great conversation. Riveting. If you wanna see the video version of this podcast or get other bonus material, then be sure to become a member of our Patreon page, Dr. Reese, you can just very simply download the app on your phone, become a member and your support will help us create an advertising budget so I can bring on some help and expand. So more people can hear what Reverend Peter has to say. What Dr. Robert Morris has to say what Santo's BCI has to say, what Michael KMO has to say, and the list goes on so we can reach more ears and spread truth. I'll talk to you on the next episode.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Thanks for listening to inner peace with Dr. Reese. If this episode opened your heart, feel free to share on social media and tell your loved ones. Also be sure to subscribe. So you never miss an episode until next time may peace be with you.